Rapha not happy with Torm

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like the LVIS 200km in march for instance?

yeah, like the LVIS 200km. if it's built in time, and i feel up for the challenge

not the dunkery dash though

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actually i have sold my addict R1 uberlight frame for a "steel is real" Enigma Extensor XCR custom frame

shiiiiiiiiiny

Specialized were at it a few years ago. There was a guy in a shed in Alaska making bags under the Epic Designs label for bike touring off-road.

Specialized squeezed his wot-sits and he is now known as Revelate Designs. They have managed to TM the word Epic!

I own both brands, and some Shutt stuff. Shutt is different to either brand in price, shape and fit - save the sportwool fibre and a 'retro/classic' overall aesthetic...so no point mentioning them again.
Fit of the Tørm is slightly longer in the body than Rapha. Rapha knit is slightly heavier... But not 2x the quality (fit/finish) to that of Tørm. So Tørm gets the nod on value.
I could justify buying in shirts like this 'every other month'...Rapha is a 'treat'...or once every 6-12 months...There's no necessity to own that much cycling gear...is there?...but shhhh! don't tell the wife I said that....
I'm not a fantastically talented, whippet, race boy..I'm a 40 something MAMIS (hey you can have MAMILs!... ).
Yes, I like to 'look good' whilst out on the bike, giving an air of gentlemanly-ness..(yeah not a word, I know....)... I also like to be comfortable, (both brands win here)...but on a budget.
So I like to cycle...mainly by myself...a kind of 2 wheeled Billy - no - Mates...or should that be Gray Wolf...I'm only pleasing myself in the end - I'm sure my mirror poses don't actually look 'like that' to other people ...I don't need to conform to any stereotype - I can (and do) make my own choices.
It is unfortunate that the bigger of the two brands has shown just how small (minded) they really are...instead they appear to be trying to thwart little David, and not relying on their own 'brand success' to ensure they do not lose their 'niche' market share...
Are they scared that their 'Batty Boy' clientele (By which I'm referring to a 'section' of the pretty boy R wearing crowd that need a certain brand to succeed in all that they do...whilst not really doing anything successful) will move away from them for a 'cheaper, inferior, imitation of their imitation'...not bloody likely.
On the other hand if all that people are interested in is a good quality, reasonably priced, well performing and reasonably stylish, cycling garment..then let them vote by not buying Rapha goods...after all I know people that wear all the 'A' gear going and can hardly see their shoes for their bellies or cover any distance once out on their 5k carbonitis 1.2lb SuperSportif....now those 'A' prices are just bonkers.....(I won't rant about them- unless someone REALLLY wants me to).

As I said at the very top I've got no brief for either Rapha or Torm but, Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons again…

So you set up a small company, do things differently, invest in designers, who come up with classically styled garments featuring well thought out and innovative design details, you use the best materials and you really make a thing about quality control and customer service, you invest in a good website, top end photography, and you take a punt on stock - that's a lot of overhead for a small company. Oh, and you don't pretend to be cheap either - that isn't the point.

A few years down the line, you're still a small company. Rapha (for it is they) are still small even by the standards of cycle clothing companies - it's their profile that's big. Then an even smaller company comes along and, to your point of view, takes the core of your range and simply copies it, slicing out all of that overhead in one go while still retaining a healthy margin thank you very much.

What are you gonna do? Well, ringing them up and asking them to stop copying your kit is unlikely to work… so your only real option is a cease and desist letter and the threat to take things further if they don't. As step_hent said above this isn't bullying it's standard procedure. If the boot were on the other foot do you think Torm would do any differently?

I'm not a big fan of Rapha's pricing, but people forget just how different they were when they came along – not that many years ago – and what an impact they've had on other cycle clothing companies particularly high end ones which have been forced to sharpen up their acts in terms of quality control, design and in particular customer service.

Stock on the website though, so is it all sorted ?

i was a customer of both but i will not be buying from rapha any longer

All of my cycling kit is Rapha, having read all of the posts in this thread I am now sure that this will continue to be the case.
If I started a small business(which is what Rapha is) and built it up over a period of years and someone came along and so obviously copied my products and website including the look and the photography, I would take action to protect my business, In fact it is what any responsible commercial organisation would do.
I have no connection with Rapha other than being a very satisfied customer. By the way I'm 55, not well off and ride an Enigma before you start with the incorrect stereotypes.

Hmm… a lot of the detailing on Rapha jerseys certainly was new (not the ring pull zip) as I said above, people think that because the styling is classical that there's nothing much technical going on, but Rapha's success it seems to me is being innovative in terms of fabrics and detail while wrapping it all up in a slightly retro style.

We've had a fair amount of both Rapha and Torm kit through the office and the opportunity to compare the two… The Torm guys seem like good blokes, but if Rapha called the lawyers it surely can't have come as much of a surprise.

erm.

Rapha may be small but they will certainly have a big enough legal budget to scare off any wanna be's.

Rapha are the new Tesco's?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/oct/15/tesco-runs-up-huge-legal-...

PS
I got Torm kit for Christmas. Might now be a rare collectors item...

I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure cease and desist letters cost peanuts

There are no legal grounds - it's a bullying letter.

The legal ways Rapha can stop them is:
a) if Torm has infringed a patent or
b) passed-off / misrepresented itself as actually being Rapha in such a way as may be likely or foreseeable to confuse a consumer

If Rapha has patented those technical innovations then it is clear cut. If they haven't patented them then you have to ask yourself were they actually original or were they not patentable. Either way anyone else can use them. If you haven't patented it then it's freely available - the law is very clear.

Has Torm passed itself off in such a way as to confuse a consumer ? The name is not similar, the styling is reminiscent but not exact. They have not used the touches that Rapha uses to identify itself such as the pink lining. And the legal test is a reasonable consumer giving the products due attention, not someone just grabbing something off a shelf.

So was anyone in the Road CC office ever showing any sign of picking up some Torm kit and only later realising it was Rapha, or vice versa ? Has anyone here gone to the Torm website and not realised it wasn't Rapha ? Because if not, there isn't a case.

This is why the Kia Optima looks like a Mercedes CLS.

Whichever brand you support or favour, this is just an act of bluff and bullying. And ultimately it will be counter-productive in my view, purely from a marketing point of view.

It's clear to everyone that, at the very least, Torm's collection is heavily 'inspired' by the success of Rapha. I honestly don't think Torm's intention was to deliberately 'pass off' their goods as those of Rapha - they are not 'Rapha knock-offs'. The styling details both product share could have been patented by Rapha, but I'm not sure that they are - and the lack of statements from Rapha would seem to indicate that indeed they aren't. Perhaps, in hindsight, Torm will now feel they didn't need to produce items that so closely resembled those of Rapha. With a bit of creativity they could (and hopefully soon will) produce 'classic' styled pieces with a few details that become unique to Torm themselves. After that even Rapha won't be able to touch them. For now this appears to be a newly established market leader trying pull rank on a younger upstart. I hope they don't succeed, but I do hope that Torm learn a lesson from it.

Whoever said Sportswool belonged to Rapha? Not me.

Well, I wouldn't be bothered about losing ad revenue one way or another - that doesn't come up in the case of Rapha or Torm though cos neither of them advertise

If I was being that calculating it would be more in my interest to come down on Torm's side card - Rapha don't do adverts – in the hope that the new guys might. Whereas I'm just trying to be objective - the only Rapha kit I've ever bought was in the sale - list is too salty for me.

Think I did explain how you could produce bike kit and still make a heallthy margin while selling at a very competitive price… same applies to all sorts of other kit too.

The simplest way is to get hold of some Rapha kit (the most cost effective way if it was Rapha would be to go to the sample sale) then find a factory in the Far East, Vietnam would be a good bet – low cost, low minimum runs and if you up the number the cost per unit will really start to drop, send 'em your 'samples' and specify your colours. Arrange shipping, build website, put the word out. Bish! Bash! Bosh! No expensive designers or product testing that'll take a mighty slice out your costs + if you've gone for longer runs on fewer garments you can drop them even further. If you've got the money up front to do that your unit cost will be so low and your margin so big (that you can afford to sell cheap AND know that you will break even by selling just a small proportion of your stock - the rest is bunce.

Finding a factory is surprisingly easy to do - a few years ago some work colleagues and I went quite a long way down the road to having a small consignment of Titanium bikes made at a factory in China.

Now I don't know if that's what Torm did, but I suspect that's what Rapha think they did + because Rapha sell direct they know exactly who've they've sold what to in the past.

Reason I've got some clue to all this is that over the past few years I've done a fair amount of jersey buying for various magazines & websites+ we're in the middle of the same process at the moment on road.cc for both lycra and merino jerseys - both coming soon and both will be good quality and reasonably priced - and the reason we can do that is that we're more interested in having lots of people wearing our jerseys than making money - just as well with the unit cost of Italian made merino

No worries Ian, didn't take it that way - fair questions I reckon.

howabout phoning Torm to see what the beef is eh?