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I've been using tubeless for a couple of years now on both a cross bike and a road bike.  I recently had an issue with the valve on the road bike which meant i had to insert a tube to get home.

After replacing the tube i've been unable to get the tyre to re-seat.

I was wondering how many people face this issue, and trouble getting it to seat in the first place?

29 comments

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hawkinspeter [1974 posts] 1 month ago
1 like

When I've had trouble, it's usually been the rim tape that's got damaged and needs replacing.

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Plasterer's Radio [406 posts] 1 month ago
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Using a canister to dump lots of air sorts a lot out but I'm sure you know that already.

Apart from that just wetting the bead with a wet sponge/cloth aids sealing and simply making sure the valve isn't in the way of the bead/rim interface.

Not had issues with rim tape as yet.

I've yet to be stranded having tubeless but have waited on a few dozen occasions for club mates while they fix their tubed flats. Mugs!

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mike the bike [1080 posts] 1 month ago
8 likes
Plasterer's Radio wrote:

 ...... I've yet to be stranded having tubeless but have waited on a few dozen occasions for club mates while they fix their tubed flats. Mugs!  

 

I know exactly what you mean Mr Radio, it's easy to think some people just deserve to be left behind.  But on the other hand such riders are simply subscribing to the "least worst" school of cycling.  

Their philosophy is that the worst thing that is likely to happen is their tubes need fixing or replacing every now and then.  However, with tubeless at its present state of development, the worst thing that can happen is an unfixable tyre a very long way from home.  

I agree it's not likely, but, as the OP demonstrates beautifully, eventually it will ruin your day.  Those of us with pessimism coursing through our veins will settle for the occasional nuisance flat while we wait for a leap forward in tubeless technology.

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hawkinspeter [1974 posts] 1 month ago
1 like
mike the bike wrote:
Plasterer's Radio wrote:

 ...... I've yet to be stranded having tubeless but have waited on a few dozen occasions for club mates while they fix their tubed flats. Mugs!  

 

I know exactly what you mean Mr Radio, it's easy to think some people just deserve to be left behind.  But on the other hand such riders are simply subscribing to the "least worst" school of cycling.  

Their philosophy is that the worst thing that is likely to happen is their tubes need fixing or replacing every now and then.  However, with tubeless at its present state of development, the worst thing that can happen is an unfixable tyre a very long way from home.  

I agree it's not likely, but, as the OP demonstrates beautifully, eventually it will ruin your day.  Those of us with pessimism coursing through our veins will settle for the occasional nuisance flat while we wait for a leap forward in tubeless technology.

Surely if the worst happens, you can just pop an inner tube into a tubeless tyre and continue on your way? If the tyre is really damaged, a plastic £5 or bit of spare plastic rubbish can work as a temporary fix between the inner tube and tyre.

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CXR94Di2 [2110 posts] 1 month ago
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You really need a compressor to get the bead to pop onto the rim. Two pops confirm both sides have seated. Sometimes I have to press the tyre hard against the ground at every point to hear the tyre pop into place, after that everything is perfect.

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d80byk [6 posts] 1 month ago
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Cheers for the responses. Tried all of the above, two bike shops also tried but no joy. In the end put a new tyre on. Old one has gone on the commuter to replace a bald one.

As HawkinsPeter stated. No issue with the valve issue, just replaced with a tube and away we go.

One thing I'd say is that all these responses required some expensive kit. Think for tubeless to go mainstream there has to be something to make it easier.

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paulrattew [266 posts] 1 month ago
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I am usually able to get my various tubeless tyres to seat with just a track pump, but that can sometimes take a massive effort. I bought a Beto Tubeless Inflator Air Tank (https://www.merlincycles.com/beto-cja-001s-tubeless-air-tank-inflator-98...) which makes everything super easy. Load that up with 160psi, then dump a load of air into the tyre in one go. 

If you leave the tyre somewhere nice and warm for a few hours it will make the bead a little bit more pliable, so it should be easier to get it into position right. 

Oh, and always use twice the amount of sealant that is recommended. Make sure that you've given the wheel a bit of a spin to spread the sealant around the tyre - helps it seal a little more quickly if its already covered the inside of the tyre.

Another trick to try is to inflate with a tube in the tyre up to the max pressure, deflate, reinflate, deflate, then try to set up tubeless.

One problem you might have is that if you have damaged the bead when getting the tyre on/off (overly agressive use of tyre leavers is the usual culprit, which is sometimes hard to avoid given how awkward they can be to get onto some rims) then the tyre might not seat and seal properly. At this point it's relegated to being used with a tube. Not ideal, but puts you in no worse a position than everyone else using tubes

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Welsh boy [534 posts] 1 month ago
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CXR94Di2 wrote:

You really need a compressor to get the bead to pop onto the rim. Two pops confirm both sides have seated. Sometimes I have to press the tyre hard against the ground at every point to hear the tyre pop into place, after that everything is perfect.

 

 

No, you dont need a compressor.  I use Schwalbe Pro One tyres and fit them with a track pump.  On the odd ocassion they wont seal first time I use a washing up liquid/water solution on the bead (applied liberaly with a tooth brush) and they seat every time with just a track pump.

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Mungecrundle [973 posts] 1 month ago
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I switched to tubeless on my MTB about 2 years ago and only about 10 years behind the curve. No way could I blow the bead onto the rims with a track pump, so I ended up fitting them with a tube and shrugged the whole nonsense off. Few days later I got the inevitable thorn puncture, ripped the tube out and realised that the tyre bead could remain fully seated on one side and that the other now matched up much tighter having spent some time conforming to the shape of the rim. So fitted a valve, applied a bit of washing up liquid to the rim and managed to pop the bead on with only a track pump. Removed core, added slime, re-inflated. Job done and same for the other tyre.

Have now bought a track pump with a chamber which makes things even easier.

Run tubulars on my road bike and would not swap to tubeless. Seems like lots of people have issues with even getting the buggers over the rim, worse the the most recalcitrant clincher, and far too easy for the unsophisticated home mechanic to damage the wheel rim.

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SpikeBike [96 posts] 1 month ago
1 like

I do mine with a track pump alone (with some effort). I run the sealant around the valve before tightening it up then run sealant along the bead of one side. Slip it on the wheel then run sealant on the other side. Pop it on and pump like crazy until the satisfying pop pop.

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hawkinspeter [1974 posts] 1 month ago
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Mungecrundle wrote:

Seems like lots of people have issues with even getting the buggers over the rim, worse the the most recalcitrant clincher, and far too easy for the unsophisticated home mechanic to damage the wheel rim.

Plastic tyre levers are the answer. I tend to be heavy-handed when fettling, but with the right tyre levers, you'll break the lever long before any damage happens to the rim. When seating tubeless tyres, I've found that technique is far more important than brute strength - lots of tubeless fitting liquid (or washing up liquid) to lubricate the rims and beads and then make sure that the beads are resting in the centre of the rim bed so that you've got a couple of extra mm to play with. Then again, I've damaged rim tape by over enthusiastic use of tyre levers, but although annoying, that's easy to replace.

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Joe Totale [56 posts] 1 month ago
1 like
d80byk wrote:

One thing I'd say is that all these responses required some expensive kit. Think for tubeless to go mainstream there has to be something to make it easier.

This for me. Recently I've been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I'd need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that's before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things...

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Mathemagician [26 posts] 1 month ago
2 likes
Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I've been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I'd need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that's before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things...

I don't know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms...what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you're afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you're not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid).

We get it, you're a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

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rogermerriman [147 posts] 1 month ago
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Mathemagician wrote:
Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I've been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I'd need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that's before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things...

I don't know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms...what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you're afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you're not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid). We get it, you're a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

 

Tubless is clearly a useful technology, though it’s takeup in bikes is difficult to gauge, online all MTBers are using it, ask at the trailcenters etc less so.

For road bikes, even new bikes probably don’t have tubless ready rims, my gravel bike doesn’t and it’s a month old..

 

yes you you could getto it, but well that is a risk. I never really suffered with punctures on full road bikes, I did with some of the CX tyres that are quite fragile, the present Gravel Bike with gravel tyres again isn’t a huge problem, the ones that are, tend to be tyre ending slashes.

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Ad Hynkel [175 posts] 1 month ago
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I have found this with tubeless tyres, after the first mounting they become a bit trickier to get to seat, particularly over time. Don't know if it is the rubber compressing slightly (is that possible?) or the bead is stretching, but either way have found sticking sealant in before having a go with standard track pump does the trick. Just slosh it around the inside of the tyre, ok don't slosh it if you care about your carpet/flooring etc., move carefully around the inside of the tyre by rotating it. Then pump. Works for me on Stan's Alpha rim.

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KiwiMike [1368 posts] 1 month ago
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People people, calm down.

Road tubeless is sorted. Worst-case to make them seat, is to put a tube in and leave inflated for a day, then remove *just one bead*, swap tube for tubeless vavle, add 50ml of sealant du jour and inflate, worst-case using the likes of the £40 Beto Air Tank. I have dome many, many dozens of setups, and this is the worst-case scenario, all up about 30 minutes, max. The rest is gravy. spend the £40 once and you're sorted.

Also spend the £32 once on the Stans kit, if you're worried about getting it right. 

In 6 years of riding tubeless exclusively, probalby 15-20,000 miles, on and off-road, on about two dozen bikes, easily twice that in tyres, I have only ever had *one* sidewall cut that sealant couldn't fix - valve out, tube and tyre boot in, sorted in the same time to do a normal flat. I then superglued a patch in place and rode it quite a few more thousand miles.

I used to go through an inner tube a week riding in Hampshire, with flint, thorns and crap roads - these were GP 4Seasons, properly-inflated, in case you ask. Now I bomb about on and off road with low-pressure tyres and nary a care. I don't have to patch or replace inner tubes, and I never have to stop in the cold/wet to faff. I have used my tubeless repair kit maybe 5 times in that distance, so once a year, when there's a tread cut too large to seal. Don't even need to add air. Plug & play.

If you can't be arsed, get a shop to set them up for you - should be £50, max for labour.

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KiwiMike [1368 posts] 1 month ago
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rogermerriman wrote:

For road bikes, even new bikes probably don’t have tubless ready rims, my gravel bike doesn’t and it’s a month old..

 

Any rim can be set up tubeless, it's the tyre that matters. Tubeless yim tape and the right valve. That's it. My CX bike has early-80's Mavic Open Pro's and I raced a season on them tubeless, no bother.

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MonkeyPuzzle [42 posts] 1 month ago
1 like
SpikeBike wrote:

I do mine with a track pump alone (with some effort). I run the sealant around the valve before tightening it up then run sealant along the bead of one side. Slip it on the wheel then run sealant on the other side. Pop it on and pump like crazy until the satisfying pop pop.

This. For re-seating tubeless tyres that aren't as tight as they were new, just paint some sealant onto the beads and pump your track pump like billio. Excellent work out for the shoulders and arms.

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Joe Totale [56 posts] 1 month ago
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Mathemagician wrote:
Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I've been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I'd need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that's before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things...

I don't know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms...what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you're afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you're not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid). We get it, you're a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

All pricings were ascertained from The Cycle Clinic:

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-tyres

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/tubeless-bits-and-bobs

I know that the guy who runs The CycleClinic is a big advocate of Tubeless tyres and he's not "a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new".

Also I'd rather use some proper equipment and not bodge my own as frankly I'm not that great at it.

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fukawitribe [2432 posts] 1 month ago
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Joe Totale wrote:

All pricings were ascertained from The Cycle Clinic:

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-tyres

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/tubeless-bits-and-bobs

Those tyre prices are very high, i'm guessing partly due to their choice of tubeless tyres and the fact you're not really getting any of the usual discount on tyres you'd expect for exactly the same things - or equivalent - from an online store. You honestly don't need a worm applicator, internal patch will generally sort you out if the sealant doesn't in those cases. Decent tubeless tyre-set £ 70-80, valves a tenner or so, sealant £10+ dependant on how much you want to buy and what type. The valves are a one-time cost and the sealant is your choice for quantity and hence refresh rate.

I could also price up some clinchers, tubes and replacement rim tape that would also make your eyes water but when it comes down to it there's not much difference in the price of the clinchers i'd buy and the price of tubeless tyres i'd get - bit more for sealant in the latter case, bit more for tubes in the former. I use ParkTool stick on patches for both. It's more a question of whether you want to do it or not IMO - if you have compatible wheels, why not - if you don't you'd have to think about it.

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rogermerriman [147 posts] 1 month ago
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KiwiMike wrote:
rogermerriman wrote:

For road bikes, even new bikes probably don’t have tubless ready rims, my gravel bike doesn’t and it’s a month old..

 

Any rim can be set up tubeless, it's the tyre that matters. Tubeless yim tape and the right valve. That's it. My CX bike has early-80's Mavic Open Pro's and I raced a season on them tubeless, no bother.

 

tyres are the most important, part yes. And lots of folks at least online seem to have success with Converting their rim, this said tubless rims do have (generally) minor shape changes to help keep the tyre in place, seems to still be a bit of a random which rim/tyres will getto and which will not, or at least with out a lot of work. Gravel/bridleways etc will generally require quite a bit more pressure than, CX racing and on the road yet another jump up. At those pressures you’d need to be very sure of your getto rims.

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KiwiMike [1368 posts] 1 month ago
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rogermerriman wrote:

tyres are the most important, part yes. And lots of folks at least online seem to have success with Converting their rim, this said tubless rims do have (generally) minor shape changes to help keep the tyre in place, seems to still be a bit of a random which rim/tyres will getto and which will not, or at least with out a lot of work. Gravel/bridleways etc will generally require quite a bit more pressure than, CX racing and on the road yet another jump up. At those pressures you’d need to be very sure of your getto rims.

er...it's the reverse, actually there Roger, if I have understood your comment correctly. Having a bead seat 'barb' or lip that holds the tyre bead in place is more important at lower pressures, where the tyre is shifting about much more on the rim whilst cornering. This ultimately manifests itslef in 'burping', where the tyre bead is pulled away from the rim wall and into the centre channel, thereby opening a gap that allows air to escape. I haven't had this happen to me in a road or gravel context, ever, nor have I met anyone who has. 

Burping happens mostly with very large volume MTB tyres run at single-digit PSI pressures, in extreme off-road situations. Or in low-pressure CX applications where a combination of a tall rim wall and very tight bead mean that once installed, the fit of the bead to rim seat is not that tight. This can be improved by adding layers of tape.

Road/gravel setups - rim width, forces exerted, pressures etc - make burping borderline-impossible to occur. You'd have to be running stupidly-low pressures for it to happen, which would badly-impact handling long before you could put it into a burping scenario.

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700c [1260 posts] 1 month ago
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Mathemagician wrote:
Joe Totale wrote:

This for me. Recently I've been looking to go tubeless but on top of the tyres I'd need all the additional kit like sealent, a valve core remover and tyre worms.  Once I did the maths it was going to cost me over £150! 

Considering a pair of decent clinchers and tubes can be bought for £60 or less, the price disparity is just too large for me and many others. And that's before we go into the additional faff of mounting the things...

I don't know where you learned maths, but how the hell do you get £150? Valve core remover costs about £0 if you have a pair of needle nose pliers. Tyre worms...what, never bought a puncture repair kit in your life? Tubeless pumps are about £50 if you're afraid of unbranded stuff, or probably about a fiver if you're not. Alternatively, you can easily make one yourself with a 2l coke bottle, some old inner tube valves and some 5mm tubing. The tubing cost me 90p from a hardware store and the pop bottle was 16p- I even got free fizzy water with it. Sealant is less than a tenner. My Schwalbe Pro Ones were £70 for the pair, and in addition there was a one off purchase of some valves (about 8 quid). We get it, you're a roadie and are therefore afraid of anything new, but these arguments with made up numbers and imagined inconveniences are so fucking tiresome.

..and you make it sound so easy  3 !

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peted76 [1105 posts] 1 month ago
1 like

Tubeless is a different way of thinking from tubes. I get asked all the time "how easy it is to put a tube in at the roadside" by people thinking about trying tubeless. The point being, you shouldn't need to take the tyre off! 

 

I'm an advocate of tubeless, being an early road adopter it's been a faff no doubt, I seem to have made all the mistakes, but the know how is now out there in the public domain, as is better sealant, and if you follow the 'structions and do it right from the start, it becomes less of a faff than running tubes. There's lots of pro's and con's from both sides, but the big selling point is simply that for 95% of the time which you'd have previously had to stop on the side of the road to change a tube, you won't have to with tubeless, can continue your ride and will harldy know about it, plus no 'sudden sniper shot blow outs' to worry about either. 

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peted76 [1105 posts] 1 month ago
2 likes

Here's a real life graph to back it up.

 

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peted76 [1105 posts] 1 month ago
0 likes

Argh damn I wish that had allowed a larger image to upload..  the text is outstanding.

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rogermerriman [147 posts] 1 month ago
0 likes
KiwiMike wrote:
rogermerriman wrote:

tyres are the most important, part yes. And lots of folks at least online seem to have success with Converting their rim, this said tubless rims do have (generally) minor shape changes to help keep the tyre in place, seems to still be a bit of a random which rim/tyres will getto and which will not, or at least with out a lot of work. Gravel/bridleways etc will generally require quite a bit more pressure than, CX racing and on the road yet another jump up. At those pressures you’d need to be very sure of your getto rims.

er...it's the reverse, actually there Roger, if I have understood your comment correctly. Having a bead seat 'barb' or lip that holds the tyre bead in place is more important at lower pressures, where the tyre is shifting about much more on the rim whilst cornering. This ultimately manifests itslef in 'burping', where the tyre bead is pulled away from the rim wall and into the centre channel, thereby opening a gap that allows air to escape. I haven't had this happen to me in a road or gravel context, ever, nor have I met anyone who has. 

Burping happens mostly with very large volume MTB tyres run at single-digit PSI pressures, in extreme off-road situations. Or in low-pressure CX applications where a combination of a tall rim wall and very tight bead mean that once installed, the fit of the bead to rim seat is not that tight. This can be improved by adding layers of tape.

Road/gravel setups - rim width, forces exerted, pressures etc - make burping borderline-impossible to occur. You'd have to be running stupidly-low pressures for it to happen, which would badly-impact handling long before you could put it into a burping scenario.

It's both low and high pressures, at low pressures tyres may burp, but equally at higher pressures you can blow a tyre off the rim, with tubes, the tube will hold it in place. tubess is relying on rim/bead, so the point is lower, hence most gravel/wide road tyres have fairly modest max pressure limits.

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KiwiMike [1368 posts] 1 month ago
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rogermerriman wrote:

It's both low and high pressures, at low pressures tyres may burp, but equally at higher pressures you can blow a tyre off the rim, with tubes, the tube will hold it in place. tubess is relying on rim/bead, so the point is lower, hence most gravel/wide road tyres have fairly modest max pressure limits.

At a pressure low enough for a road or even CX tyre to burp, you're talking sub-10psi. Ridiculously-low.

To blow off a rim, you're talking 70+ PSI with a crap tyre-rim fit - basically too high for decent sizes. Really there's no point going tubeless with less than 28mm, because it needs to be too hard to maintain less than 15% tyre drop and you loose all the nice supple benefits.

Compass Cycles say their tubeless shouldn't be run at more than 60psi - as they don't do less than 35mm in tubeless, that's a rider-bike weight limit of around 120kg - or in other words, heavy AF. Noting you *can* go harder, but should always go maybe 10-20% PSI higher for a few days to make sure your tyre-rim combo can keep things mounted. The actual pressure limit on the tyres is 75.

 

Anyway, the point was you don't *need* a 'tubeless-specific' rim. 

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rogermerriman [147 posts] 1 month ago
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KiwiMike wrote:
rogermerriman wrote:

It's both low and high pressures, at low pressures tyres may burp, but equally at higher pressures you can blow a tyre off the rim, with tubes, the tube will hold it in place. tubess is relying on rim/bead, so the point is lower, hence most gravel/wide road tyres have fairly modest max pressure limits.

At a pressure low enough for a road or even CX tyre to burp, you're talking sub-10psi. Ridiculously-low.

To blow off a rim, you're talking 70+ PSI with a crap tyre-rim fit - basically too high for decent sizes. Really there's no point going tubeless with less than 28mm, because it needs to be too hard to maintain less than 15% tyre drop and you loose all the nice supple benefits.

Compass Cycles say their tubeless shouldn't be run at more than 60psi - as they don't do less than 35mm in tubeless, that's a rider-bike weight limit of around 120kg - or in other words, heavy AF. Noting you *can* go harder, but should always go maybe 10-20% PSI higher for a few days to make sure your tyre-rim combo can keep things mounted. The actual pressure limit on the tyres is 75.

 

Anyway, the point was you don't *need* a 'tubeless-specific' rim. 

 

Its not really about need more if it's wise/your prepared to fiddle/take the risk.

Tubeless rims are a slightly different shape, to help keep the bead in place, clearly that doesn't mean you need them.

 

This said, if you use non tubless rims, coupled with rims/tyres do differ in size, it propably will work, but it is a bodge, though granted tyres seem to be better which is reducing it.

 

Its worth noting that the upper limit that the tyre will blow off, for 35mm ish tyres is rather lower than one might imagine, for tubless.