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Speed issues on flat stretches of road

I'm 5'11, 70kgs and fortunate enough to ride good quality, lightweight bikes.  I've been cycling a little over 3 years now.  I average 100 miles a week.  I live in the Cotswolds.  Lumpy when I need it to be, or flatish over towards the Malverns.

I ride with two other 'enthusasitc amateurs' on a frequent basis and can hold my own on the climbs, but have always struggled on the downhills (I am very cautious, and sit on the back brake all the way down).  No problem so far (I'll never master going fast downhill, and that's fine by me).

Where I seem to fade, or at least, drop back consistenly on my group rides is on flat stretches of road.  I just can't figure out what I am doing wrong!  It's very frustrating.  I am fit, have an FTP of 255w and I can easily hold a cadence of 95/100 for 8-10 minutes.  

The guys I pedal with seem to make it look effortless, yet I am pushing threshold just to keep up, having to sprint to catch up and then work hard to keep with them.  It's disproportionate in effort compared to climbing.  I would be much happier at a permanent 8-13% incline that suffer the misery and embarrasment of 2 miles of 1% open road.  I know the segments locally that cost me time.  I've gone out solo to try and crack them and just can't get quicker.   

Fellow Roaders, please help - your candid views are appreciated (e.g./ man up, pedal harder, do more miles)... but even better would be useful advice about how I can train to be better at this.

 

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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madcarew replied to andyp | 6 years ago
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andyp wrote:

BBB wrote:

andyp wrote:

BBB wrote:

250w is too little and 90PSI (for 28mm tyres) way too much.  

what a strange answer. 250w is way too little for *what*? and 90PSI for 28s is way too  much...why?

It's not a strange answer. It's a very simple one. 

Objectively 250W is a moderate amount of power and clearly not enough to keep up with the other guys.

90 PSI in 28mm tyres at 70kg is simply too much pressure. On typical UK roads it'll slow you down, reduce comfort and distrupt the pedaling rythm. Far too many people still don't understand what pneumatic tyres were invented for.

 

That's much better. Well done for qualifying your answer with some thought.

 

The tyre pressure issue is not nearly that clear cut. In all available tests, rolling resistance is lower with a higher pressure than a lower pressure, in normal operating conditions (60 - 150 psi)

A wider tyre at the same pressure as a narrower tyre has a lower rolling resistance than the narrower tyre. Wider tyres have more air resistance than narrower tyres, and in nearly all cases this far out wieghs the very few watts RR savings.... at the same pressure.

So our OP, riding wide tyres at a high(er) pressure is taking advantage of better rolling resistance than those at lower pressure, while his air resistance is of less issue as he is slipstreaming, so he is in the fastest conformation (tyre-wise) for his situation. He would be even faster (more energy efficient) if he pumped the tyres up to 120 psi. The savings are miniscule though. The tread pattern on his tyres has far more effect.

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Welsh boy replied to madcarew | 6 years ago
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madcarew wrote:

The tyre pressure issue is not nearly that clear cut. In all available tests, rolling resistance is lower with a higher pressure than a lower pressure, in normal operating conditions (60 - 150 psi)

A wider tyre at the same pressure as a narrower tyre has a lower rolling resistance than the narrower tyre. Wider tyres have more air resistance than narrower tyres, and in nearly all cases this far out wieghs the very few watts RR savings.... at the same pressure.

Very interesting and goes with what I have always suspected.  You dont see team pursuit riders (or any track riders come to that) using wide tyres inflated to low pressures so in events where speed is the only criterion riders are still using narrow tyres at high pressures.  I think the whole wide tyre, low pressure has gone out of all proportion and has become another marketing fad repeated without thought on cycling forums and clubruns, after all, wheel and tyre manufacturers need to sell more product dont they.  I went out yesterday on 23mm tyres after 2 years on 25mm tyres, same pressure, same roads, same level of fitness and over 3 hours I was 0.5mph quicker than usual!

Madcarew, out of interest, could you point me to any of the research (serious question, I am not being funny, I would like to see my long held belief scientifically proved).

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check12 replied to Welsh boy | 6 years ago
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Welsh boy wrote:

madcarew wrote:

The tyre pressure issue is not nearly that clear cut. In all available tests, rolling resistance is lower with a higher pressure than a lower pressure, in normal operating conditions (60 - 150 psi)

A wider tyre at the same pressure as a narrower tyre has a lower rolling resistance than the narrower tyre. Wider tyres have more air resistance than narrower tyres, and in nearly all cases this far out wieghs the very few watts RR savings.... at the same pressure.

Very interesting and goes with what I have always suspected.  You dont see team pursuit riders (or any track riders come to that) using wide tyres inflated to low pressures so in events where speed is the only criterion riders are still using narrow tyres at high pressures.  I think the whole wide tyre, low pressure has gone out of all proportion and has become another marketing fad repeated without thought on cycling forums and clubruns, after all, wheel and tyre manufacturers need to sell more product dont they.  I went out yesterday on 23mm tyres after 2 years on 25mm tyres, same pressure, same roads, same level of fitness and over 3 hours I was 0.5mph quicker than usual!

Madcarew, out of interest, could you point me to any of the research (serious question, I am not being funny, I would like to see my long held belief scientifically proved).

 

also depends on road surface, velodrome, yeah 22mm at 140psi, crappy back road with naff tarmac, 25mm at whatever suits your weight, say 80/90psi all about absorbing the imperfections vs bumping you up and down and you loosing energy dealing with those stresses, it's got a name but my brain isn't remembering it for me the the moment. Was a study done on tank driver seats and the bump absorption they gave, more was better I.e lower pressures tyres on a bike give you a smoother and faster ride. 

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Pilot Pete replied to Welsh boy | 6 years ago
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Welsh boy wrote:

madcarew wrote:

The tyre pressure issue is not nearly that clear cut. In all available tests, rolling resistance is lower with a higher pressure than a lower pressure, in normal operating conditions (60 - 150 psi)

A wider tyre at the same pressure as a narrower tyre has a lower rolling resistance than the narrower tyre. Wider tyres have more air resistance than narrower tyres, and in nearly all cases this far out wieghs the very few watts RR savings.... at the same pressure.

Very interesting and goes with what I have always suspected.  You dont see team pursuit riders (or any track riders come to that) using wide tyres inflated to low pressures so in events where speed is the only criterion riders are still using narrow tyres at high pressures.  I think the whole wide tyre, low pressure has gone out of all proportion and has become another marketing fad repeated without thought on cycling forums and clubruns, after all, wheel and tyre manufacturers need to sell more product dont they.  I went out yesterday on 23mm tyres after 2 years on 25mm tyres, same pressure, same roads, same level of fitness and over 3 hours I was 0.5mph quicker than usual!

Madcarew, out of interest, could you point me to any of the research (serious question, I am not being funny, I would like to see my long held belief scientifically proved).

A little explanation from tyre manufacturer Schwalbe https://www.schwalbe.com/en/rollwiderstand.html

And Continentals thoughts on it; http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/latest-news/165-wider-tyres-go-faster

A video from GCN explaining it; https://youtu.be/yrHxQg1OW0A

And the very reliable Steve at intheknowcycling; https://intheknowcycling.com/2016/04/03/best-wider-road-bike-tires-wheel...

Hope that gives some insight into the theory.

PP

 

 

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CXR94Di2 | 6 years ago
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You need to be able to hold 95rpm for hours. Get tucked in behind a bigger rider on the flats downhill sections, I mean really tucked in.  once the road tilts upwards more than a couple of percent then you will come into your own.  If you let the draft break then your lightweight and lower power will not be enough.  Im a big rider, can stay with our club runs most weekends, but we always(well it seems that way) go up a steep drag 10-15 miles from home. I get dropped everytime by the lighter and younger riders.  It really is horses for courses. 

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Htc | 6 years ago
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Absolute power normally wins out easily on the flats. 

You said you were 70kg and your FTP was 255watts, that puts you at 3.6w/kg. If for example one of those you ride with is 80kg and has 3.5w/kg that would mean their FTP was 280watts. Thats a 25watt difference which on the flat is going to make all the difference. As gradient increases w/kg starts to take over and the longer the climb the more likely you are to pull ahead. 

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madcarew | 6 years ago
7 likes

Part 2: Training.

Horses for courses. For about 75% of the population doing overstress intervals is an effective way to build strength and endurance. For about 75% of the population doing lots of miles is an effective way to build strength and endurance. For about 2% of the population nothing makes any difference at all. 

FTP

You should be able to hold your FTP for 20 minutes reasonably comfortably, it should be quite difficult to hold it for 40 minutes and absolute pergatory to hold it for an hour. If this doesn't sound right then you need to have your FTP re-assessed.

Intervals

It really doesn't matter how or what kind of intervals you do, to a large extent, except that they should be at or above your FTP. A general starting point is 110% of your FTP. (for you about 280W) The most important thing about intervals (to maximise returns) is that they should be done to failure, aiming to spend as much accumulated time at the interval level as possible.  

So, for example, you set out and do 280W and hold it for as long as you can. Let's say you get to 4 minutes before you can't maintain it any longer. You can wait 10 minutes (riding gently) and try again. You might find you can do it for 4 minutes again, but more likely you can only do it for say 2.5 mins. You do that as many times as you can. Generally speaking, you'll manage about 4 repeats before you can't make the number any more. That is an effective interval session.

Another approach is, if you know that you can hold your 110% power for 4 minutes, then do that power for 60% of that time (2.5 mins) take a 2.5 min break (pedalling gently) and do the same again. Chances are you can do this about 8 times. The first example had you spending 10 mins total at your target power, this one has you spending 20 mins. Arguably a more efffective interval session.

At first these kinds of efforts are very difficult. There is a lot of neuromuscular programming that goes on, but perservere, and after 2-3 sessions a week for 3 weeks you will find they are considerably easier. As an example, I can do 3 mins on 2 mins off at 110% FTP for 18-20 repeats. But it takes 6 months of 2 sessions a week to get to that. As part of the neuromuscular programming, you need to do these efforts in your aero position. No point teaching the muscles to do it in an upright position and then trying to apply it in an aero position.

Hope this all helps!!!!!!

Enjoy!!!!  1

 

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madcarew | 6 years ago
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Slippy, you've asked a few questions, with a  few parts. I'll try some basic maths and explanations, and then some training tips. 

Horses for courses, if you are on a decent bike wheels, tyres etc, and in lycra then 255 watts is enough for:

32 kph if you are sitting up right riding on on the tops

33 kph if you are on the hoods

33.5 kph if you are on the drops

35-36 kph if you are hunched over with a flattish back and forearms level with the ground. 

If you're in non-form fitting clothes you can scrub 1 kph off any of those speeds.

The first thing is to look at your position. I'm 80kg and on my local track 255W will have me doing 37 kph. I'm reasonable aero. If you're riding on the hoods with arms reasonably straight, and your mates are reasonably aero doing 37 kph, then up on the hoods in their slipstream with a flappy jacket then you are actually doing more work than them. Look at pros and work on imitating their style.

As someone else said, 90-100 rpm for 10 minutes is not particularly special, but it's not that important either. Adjust your gearing so you are in a comfortable gear. For you that might be 80 rpm. Nothing wrong with that. 

You say you can hold your own on the climbs. Does that mean you drop them? If you simply stay with them and they are 10% heavier than you then they are putting out (+/-) 10% more power than you. Another 25W is a big difference especially noticable oin the flat. Another factor that may be playing is position on the bike and flexibility. One of the big limiters of power is how acutely bent the hip angle is at the top of the stroke. If you are climbing, especially out of the saddle, then your hip angle is very open and far higher power can be generated. It is quite possible that you aren't particularly flexible, or you simply don't porduce good power very bent over, in which case your FTP might be gained in a more upright position, and your buddies can keep producing it in a very aero position. The answer to this is good bike fitting, and practice being in the aero position. 

Last bit on position is Bunch position.

Are you any good at sitting in the bunch? Are you a few centimetres off their wheel, or are you half a metre back?

If you're the second rider in the pace line and you're a few centimetres off his wheel you will save about 25% effort. If you're half a metre back you will save 10% effort. If you're 3rd rider in the line you will save about 35% effort if everyone is at a few centimetres gap, and 10% effortif you are half a metre back. Learn to ride good position. if you're more than half a wheel back you are starting to lose large amounts of shelter.

 

 

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Welsh boy | 6 years ago
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For a start forget all about the number, figures, percentages and all that crap and enjoy riding your bike.

100 rpm for 10 minutes is not good, you should be able to do that sort of pedalling rate all day.  You say you have to work to keep up with your mates, has it ever occured to you that they are working to ride at that pace too?  Learn from the people you ride with who are better at a particular discipline, watch their gearing, pedalling speed, road position, body language etc and, if they are better than you, try doing what they are doing but dont expect an immediate improvement, you will have to work at something for a while to see a benefit.

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slippy62 | 6 years ago
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Thanks ChrisB200SX and BehindTheBikesheds - all noted and taken onboard.

My riding buddies aren't dropping me intentionally, but rather I just find that the disconnect between the relative performance on this type of terrain odd.  

I'll focus on power and aero position for a few weeks and assuming  it's interesting to someone I'll post back accordingly.

Thanks all for your input.

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BehindTheBikesheds | 6 years ago
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Simply sounds like those you're riding with are better on the flat, sometimes that's just how it is.

If you're not in a race then is it actually that important that you keep up, if so why, if it's having a negative mental effect on you then you need to change something that you are in control of. Either ride with others who won't/can't drop you or you accept that that's just what it is and get on with it.

I doubt it's pedalling technique, aero position probably has a part of it, as above the ability to get in fairly close would help (so save a bit of effort to sustain your output) but whatever it is the end result is bothering you enough to post up to ask for advice.

If it's that big a deal make changes other than worrying about trying to get faster. 

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ChrisB200SX | 6 years ago
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I'd hazard a guess that you're just not very aero and/or you need more power.

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alansmurphy | 6 years ago
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One of my bigger riding buddies can drop me if he ramps it up in 5% increments every 30 seconds for a few minutes. Weirdly, if he tries to drop me quickly I can hang on. You say you're not confident descending, are you confident to sit on the wheel, nice and close? This is a great way to save energy and cling on, then you can build on this.

As a lightweight spinner, hills may come naturally. Maybe some power exercises for the legs in the gym could help...

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rjfrussell | 6 years ago
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"I just can't figure out what I am doing wrong!  It's very frustrating.  I am fit, have an FTP of 255w and I can easily hold a cadence of 95/100 for 8-10 minutes.  "

 

#humblebragging

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nadsta | 6 years ago
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If you can actually hold your ftp for an hour in a reasonably aero position on a flat road then be happy. You’ll probably be averaging 35-40kmh which is good going.  If that’s the case and you’re getting droppped then you just need to find slightly slower buddies. And I hope you begin to enjoy descending some day, it’s one the absolute joys of cycling. There was a good ‘how to’ thread here about it not so long ago. 

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slippy62 | 6 years ago
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IanEdward - reassuring to know that when I run out of excuses with my riding buddies, I can blame physics  1

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slippy62 | 6 years ago
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Thanks for the advice sergius.  The guys are somewhat heavier than me but not by a significant margin.  They are almost certainly putting more power through the pedals though.

- My tyres are top quality.  I am a bit slack pumping them up, but I'm probably at 90psi on (on 28's) at this time of the year.

- Not in the tuck, ever.  Crouched down and elbows in is about as aero as it gets.

- Tight lycra and Kask helmet etc, so all the gear on that front.

Sounds like I need to just work harder on my power output to compensate for the differential on that type of terrain.  It's just damn frustrating!

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IanEdward | 6 years ago
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The way I've always understood it is that wind/air resistance punishes the lighter rider more, something to do with the F=ma equation when F is the force caused by the air pushing on your body, m is your mass and a is the (backwards) acceleration caused by the wind.

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Acm replied to IanEdward | 6 years ago
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IanEdward wrote:

The way I've always understood it is that wind/air resistance punishes the lighter rider more, something to do with the F=ma equation when F is the force caused by the air pushing on your body, m is your mass and a is the (backwards) acceleration caused by the wind.

Just to clarify, F=ma applies to anything that's accelerating/decelerating. Riding on the flat at a constant speed, your acceleration is 0, so there's no force due to acceleration. All the force you're producing is to overcome air resistance, which follows a more complicated equation.

The reason lighter riders tend to struggle more on the flat is because they'll produce less power than a heavier rider with the same power-to-weight ratio. The percentage increase in aerodynamic drag is less than the increase in required power uphill for the heavier rider, so heavier riders do better on the flat, lighter riders in the hills

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sergius | 6 years ago
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Are the guys you ride with much bigger than you?  I.e. 80+ kg chaps with a correspondingly higher power output?  The actual power number matters more (rather than w/kg) as the slope decreases or other factors (wind resistance) increase.

On the random front:

- Check your tyres, are they using better tyres than you?

- Are your tyres inflated appropriately?

- Are you riding in a vaguely aerodynamic position? Elbows-in at least if you aren't on the drops

- Are your clothes appropriate e.g. tight rather than baggy

 

 

Similarly to you I tend to do better when climbing rather than blasting along the flat.  On a few sportives I've had to work very hard to hang on in a group, only to easily pull ahead on the climbs.  I only got a trainer with a power meter last week, but our numbers and experiences appear similar (I'm 62kg with a FTP of around 250 or so - must get around to doing a proper test!).

Just get into the habit of sucking a wheel on the flat IMO!

 

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