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I'm eagerly anticipating the release of the Cento 10 NDR; it looks stunning and I love the design philosophy. However, I'm still very perplexed by the "Actiflex" damping.

Again, I really like the design and the fact the elastomer inserts can be swapped to finely tune the ride quality - but it just seems so horrendously over-engineered.

I have no doubt that it does damp some of the vibrations from uneven road surfaces and therefore give a better ride - Wilier say they have still maintained a very stiff frameset, again, sounds great.

I'm confused why they didn't follow something similar to what Canyon/Ergon/Specialised have done. Again, use whatever "special layup" they say they have used to create a more comfortable ride, but, instead of using a more complex elastomer damping system at the top of the seat stays - why not have conventional seat stays (and the greater stiffness they provide) and use a seatpost which can offer the same amount of damping with interchangeable damping media.

I have Canyons VCLS 2.0 seatpost on my alu commuter bike - it's incredible! When cycling over rumble strips/cobbles/etc, it totally isolates the saddle from the high-frequency sharp vibrations whilst my frame remains uncomplicated (and therefore easier to maintain and cheaper).

I am guessing that the reason Wilier chose not to do this is that Canyon and Specialised have already done it, therefore they are using seatstay damping as an ISP.

Am I being cynical?

18 comments

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Nick T [1136 posts] 9 months ago
2 likes

Because Wilier aren't really a design company, more of a marketing company. They license whatever tech the factory develops which they think they'll be able to market: different=marketing opportunity

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il sole [88 posts] 9 months ago
1 like

I have a wilier cento 10AIR with 28mm tyres...tbh, although the NDR looks ace, the ride quality on my bike is great. Imho there is no need for all the fancy gimmicks on the NDR...BUT, what do i know??? whilst on holiday in Italy this summer i bought a mag over there which absolutely raved about the ride quality on the NDR, so maybe it is worth it! 

I'm sure if you did buy it, you'd love it! My cento 10AIR is my third wilier, and i can't imagine buying another brand...

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madcarew [687 posts] 9 months ago
1 like

Point of difference is probably the simplest and closest answer

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Canyon48 [928 posts] 9 months ago
2 likes
il sole wrote:

I have a wilier cento 10AIR with 28mm tyres...tbh, although the NDR looks ace, the ride quality on my bike is great. Imho there is no need for all the fancy gimmicks on the NDR...BUT, what do i know??? whilst on holiday in Italy this summer i bought a mag over there which absolutely raved about the ride quality on the NDR, so maybe it is worth it! 

I'm sure if you did buy it, you'd love it! My cento 10AIR is my third wilier, and i can't imagine buying another brand...

My other half is dead set on buying the NDR frameset and I don't blame her, it looks stunning.

As an engineer, I'm just a bit confused by why an engineer would have decided to use a fairly complex and expensive damper for such little relative damping. The answer seems to be "because it's different so should sell well".

I don't doubt that it adds a bit of comfort (probably somewhere in the region of knocking a few psi out your tyres). My girlfriend has suffered from back, shoulder and neck problems the whole time she's been cycling - she's a bike fitter, her position isn't an issue, most the issues relate to a spine injury she got horse riding.

I have a Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Disc 8.0 with 25mm GP4000's, the ride is buttery smooth. My other bike is an alu commuter frame with 28mm GP 4Seasons and Canyon's VCLS seatpost, that's even smoother over rough stuff, thouhg the alu doesn't kill road buzz like my carbon Canyon.

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TypeVertigo [427 posts] 9 months ago
2 likes

FYI - The Canyon VCLS seat posts are actually made by Ergon. Theoretically you could add it to any bike that has a round seat post in the correct diameter.

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Canyon48 [928 posts] 9 months ago
0 likes
TypeVertigo wrote:

FYI - The Canyon VCLS seat posts are actually made by Ergon. Theoretically you could add it to any bike that has a round seat post in the correct diameter.

I bought the Canyon VCLS 2.0 (Ergon CF3) in the Canyon sale.

The interchangeability and simplicity is the beauty of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the seatpost has the same or better damping effects than the NR frameset, but at barely any cost (relative to an overly complex frameset), it also doesn't compromise frame stiffness.

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il sole [88 posts] 9 months ago
2 likes
wellsprop wrote:
il sole wrote:

I have a wilier cento 10AIR with 28mm tyres...tbh, although the NDR looks ace, the ride quality on my bike is great. Imho there is no need for all the fancy gimmicks on the NDR...BUT, what do i know??? whilst on holiday in Italy this summer i bought a mag over there which absolutely raved about the ride quality on the NDR, so maybe it is worth it! 

I'm sure if you did buy it, you'd love it! My cento 10AIR is my third wilier, and i can't imagine buying another brand...

My other half is dead set on buying the NDR frameset and I don't blame her, it looks stunning.

As an engineer, I'm just a bit confused by why an engineer would have decided to use a fairly complex and expensive damper for such little relative damping. The answer seems to be "because it's different so should sell well".

I don't doubt that it adds a bit of comfort (probably somewhere in the region of knocking a few psi out your tyres). My girlfriend has suffered from back, shoulder and neck problems the whole time she's been cycling - she's a bike fitter, her position isn't an issue, most the issues relate to a spine injury she got horse riding.

I have a Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Disc 8.0 with 25mm GP4000's, the ride is buttery smooth. My other bike is an alu commuter frame with 28mm GP 4Seasons and Canyon's VCLS seatpost, that's even smoother over rough stuff, thouhg the alu doesn't kill road buzz like my carbon Canyon.

you're right. there was an interesting interview in peloton magazine a couple of issues back  with one of the technicians at Orica Scott. He said before paris Roubaix last year, he played around endlessly with Matt hayman's tyre pressures to get the right balance...of course we know what happened - he won the race on an aero bike. I think that as long as your frame can take larger volume tyres, they can offer the comfort which people require (especially with a tubeless set up) without the need for over complicated engineering solutions...

Avatar
Canyon48 [928 posts] 9 months ago
1 like
il sole wrote:

 

you're right. there was an interesting interview in peloton magazine a couple of issues back  with one of the technicians at Orica Scott. He said before paris Roubaix last year, he played around endlessly with Matt hayman's tyre pressures to get the right balance...of course we know what happened - he won the race on an aero bike. I think that as long as your frame can take larger volume tyres, they can offer the comfort which people require (especially with a tubeless set up) without the need for over complicated engineering solutions...

I do, however, really like the design, it's certainly very elegant. Overly complex engineering solutions are generally very interesting but just too complex.

The irony is, the simple solutions are usually the best but the complex solutions often sell better because they look amazing (especially when backed up with fancy CAD, CFD and FEA) to non-engineers (see: normal people).

Avatar
il sole [88 posts] 9 months ago
0 likes
wellsprop wrote:
il sole wrote:

 

you're right. there was an interesting interview in peloton magazine a couple of issues back  with one of the technicians at Orica Scott. He said before paris Roubaix last year, he played around endlessly with Matt hayman's tyre pressures to get the right balance...of course we know what happened - he won the race on an aero bike. I think that as long as your frame can take larger volume tyres, they can offer the comfort which people require (especially with a tubeless set up) without the need for over complicated engineering solutions...

I do, however, really like the design, it's certainly very elegant. Overly complex engineering solutions are generally very interesting but just too complex.

The irony is, the simple solutions are usually the best but the complex solutions often sell better because they look amazing (especially when backed up with fancy CAD, CFD and FEA) to non-engineers (see: normal people).

If you like it, buy it! I buy on looks over anything else - no shame in that!!!

Avatar
Canyon48 [928 posts] 9 months ago
0 likes
il sole wrote:
wellsprop wrote:
il sole wrote:

 

you're right. there was an interesting interview in peloton magazine a couple of issues back  with one of the technicians at Orica Scott. He said before paris Roubaix last year, he played around endlessly with Matt hayman's tyre pressures to get the right balance...of course we know what happened - he won the race on an aero bike. I think that as long as your frame can take larger volume tyres, they can offer the comfort which people require (especially with a tubeless set up) without the need for over complicated engineering solutions...

I do, however, really like the design, it's certainly very elegant. Overly complex engineering solutions are generally very interesting but just too complex.

The irony is, the simple solutions are usually the best but the complex solutions often sell better because they look amazing (especially when backed up with fancy CAD, CFD and FEA) to non-engineers (see: normal people).

If you like it, buy it! I buy on looks over anything else - no shame in that!!!

It's my girlfriend who wants it! Just waiting for it to get into UK shops  10

Avatar
matthewn5 [1190 posts] 8 months ago
0 likes
TypeVertigo wrote:

FYI - The Canyon VCLS seat posts are actually made by Ergon. Theoretically you could add it to any bike that has a round seat post in the correct diameter.

I've got one on my Cinelli.

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BeatPoet [84 posts] 2 months ago
1 like

Best looking bike I've seen in ages. I don't know why you think a few dampers here and there equate to "over engineering". You make a choice. I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked dull. You can't really buy a bad bike in that price range so I always go for the sexy one. Canyon make great bikes but they look utterly prosaic and everyone has one. 

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Canyon48 [928 posts] 1 month ago
0 likes
BeatPoet wrote:

Best looking bike I've seen in ages. I don't know why you think a few dampers here and there equate to "over engineering". You make a choice. I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked dull. You can't really buy a bad bike in that price range so I always go for the sexy one. Canyon make great bikes but they look utterly prosaic and everyone has one. 

Looks fantastic, I agree yes

Just a rather overly complex solution, given that you can get so much compliance out of carbon depending on the design/layup.

Avatar
SingleSpeed [429 posts] 1 month ago
2 likes
BeatPoet wrote:

I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked dull. 

 

I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked like a Scouse Chav.

 

 

In other news, I love wilier 75% of my road bike are wiliers....The Cento 10 NDR does somewhat dissapoint me in the complete lack of Wilier's trademark over exuberence in ridiculous bad translated bike graphics highlighting every patented feature on the bike.

Avatar
Canyon48 [928 posts] 1 month ago
1 like
SingleSpeed wrote:
BeatPoet wrote:

I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked dull. 

 

I used to be of the mind that if I just wore North Face jackets and trainers I'd be both stylish and utilitarian. I was neither. I looked like a Scouse Chav.

 

 

In other news, I love wilier 75% of my road bike are wiliers....The Cento 10 NDR does somewhat dissapoint me in the complete lack of Wilier's trademark over exuberence in ridiculous bad translated bike graphics highlighting every patented feature on the bike.

That's what I find so nice about the Cento 10 ND,R, the graphics are much simpler  10

The Cento 10 Air Disc Ramato is in it's own league though. How I wish I could afford one of those - even the "basic" Ultegra and DT Swiss build is more than twice my Canyon (of the same build)!

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peted76 [1078 posts] 1 month ago
0 likes

Regardless... gloss red is the correct colourway. Carry on,

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jsimmons [1 post] 5 days ago
0 likes

I'm in a bit of a unique position to comment as I've ridden a 10NDR (the same one that Peleton Magazine had on test in the SF Bay area).   My "daily" endurance bike is a Bianchi Infinito CV Disc, and I'm an engineer with experience in composites engineering (F22 fighter....).

It's an interesting comparison to the Bianchi.   Both had 28mm tires, so tire size was out as a means of differentiation.

The NDR rear suspension works.   It takes the edge off the vibration coming to your seat to a similar level as the Bianchi, but mitigates shock to a far greater extent.

The Bianchi wins out by a mile at the front end.   The countervail seriously improves things in a balanced way front to back, whilst the Wilier only addresses the rear end, leaving the front to be sorted by the tire and bars.

So, the Bianchi is better in the front and Wilier better in the rear.   The fact that the Bianchi only allows 28mm tires is a serious limiter (we have attrocious rodes in some of the most beautiful spots).   I have friends on the Trek Domane (rides like wood), and then new S Roubaix is just flat weird to ride.   I like a more firm connection to the bike.

Lastly, I feel qualified to comment on the engineering.   To call Wilier complex compared to other approaches is simply a misstatement.   Compared to tuning the composites or adding springs to stems, elastomers to bearing mounts, etc. Wilier has done a simple job of decoupling compliance from an otherwise very stiff and light structure.   It's a simple, elegant solution.

Now, do I really need a new bike?

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Canyon48 [928 posts] 5 days ago
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jsimmons wrote:

I'm in a bit of a unique position to comment as I've ridden a 10NDR (the same one that Peleton Magazine had on test in the SF Bay area).   My "daily" endurance bike is a Bianchi Infinito CV Disc, and I'm an engineer with experience in composites engineering (F22 fighter....).

It's an interesting comparison to the Bianchi.   Both had 28mm tires, so tire size was out as a means of differentiation.

The NDR rear suspension works.   It takes the edge off the vibration coming to your seat to a similar level as the Bianchi, but mitigates shock to a far greater extent.

The Bianchi wins out by a mile at the front end.   The countervail seriously improves things in a balanced way front to back, whilst the Wilier only addresses the rear end, leaving the front to be sorted by the tire and bars.

So, the Bianchi is better in the front and Wilier better in the rear.   The fact that the Bianchi only allows 28mm tires is a serious limiter (we have attrocious rodes in some of the most beautiful spots).   I have friends on the Trek Domane (rides like wood), and then new S Roubaix is just flat weird to ride.   I like a more firm connection to the bike.

Lastly, I feel qualified to comment on the engineering.   To call Wilier complex compared to other approaches is simply a misstatement.   Compared to tuning the composites or adding springs to stems, elastomers to bearing mounts, etc. Wilier has done a simple job of decoupling compliance from an otherwise very stiff and light structure.   It's a simple, elegant solution.

Now, do I really need a new bike?

F22?! Nice  4 I've only worked on Airbus and Boeing so far.

That's disappointing that you found the front end harsh, I would have thought the carbon bars would have sorted that out!

I should clarify what I meant about the Willier solution being more complex, I meant when compared with a leaf spring seatpost (Ergon/Canyon).