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Tubeless versus Tubular

So with tubeless becoming more common I have the following question.

 

What is the difference in ease of roadside repairs between a Tubeless with a sealant and a Tubular with some sealant in it?

 

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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24 comments

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calayanrail | 6 years ago
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For me there is no much difference between road side tub and tubeless repair. For small hole you just wait it to seal with the sealant inside. You can also use foam on both of them, I bring one can of foam with me all the time. For big holes you can use a tubeless repair kit. Which is basically sticky ropes or rubber plugs with inserting tools. You just need to shove the sticky rope with the inserting tool into the hole to fill up most of the gap, then wait the sealant to seal off the rest. If this still can't fix the issue, I'll take cab home (but I've never ended in this way before). I would never try changing a tub or installing an inner tube into the tubeless at road side. As for the tub, you will not have the patience to clean off the residue tape or cement, and there is so much dirt out there to stick onto the tub when installing so most likely you cannot install the tub properly and need to remove, clean and reinstall when back at home. For the tubelss, removing and installing the tire is a demanding job. It is much much more difficult than doing so with clincher tires.  I never succeeded without using soapy water before so I belive even I'm able to remove the tire somehow I probably cannot install the tire back without pinch the inner tube.

By the way I found tubeless rolls better then tubular and is much more comfortable. So now my campy bora ultra 2 is collecting dust under my bed...

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srchar | 6 years ago
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Once you've done it a couple of times, changing a tubular doesn't take any longer than changing an inner tube; in fact I think I'm probably quicker at tearing off a tub and replacing than I am at pulling off a clincher, fitting a new tube and remounting the tyre. Plus, you don't get "inner tube pinch" anxiety.

The reason I don't commute on tubulars (Veloflex Roubaix user here) is nothing to do with the time taken to fix a flat; it's that a piece of glass can write off a £70 tyre.  So it's Lithions for me on the commute bike, despite the fact that tubulars offer a noticeably nicer ride, which can be enjoyed and appreciated even when out for a weekend spin rather than in a race.

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madcarew replied to srchar | 6 years ago
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srchar wrote:

Once you've done it a couple of times, changing a tubular doesn't take any longer than changing an inner tube; in fact I think I'm probably quicker at tearing off a tub and replacing than I am at pulling off a clincher, fitting a new tube and remounting the tyre.....

Hmmmm, I think I'll have to change to your glue. Geting my tubs off is 10 minutes of heaving, pulling and swearing and involves crowbars and winches sometimes They've normally been on for 3-4 years when I change them as I only use them for certain races, and the glue is awful hard.

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srchar replied to madcarew | 6 years ago
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madcarew wrote:

Hmmmm, I think I'll have to change to your glue.

I use the Vittoria stuff in a black tube.

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peted76 | 6 years ago
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Running tubeless for some time now and I've made all the mistakes twice, but now, confident in my set up, my 'repair kit has gone FROM: Spare tube (conti supersonic), three bike levers,  small leyzene tool, 16g compressed air can plus compressed air can widget, couple of spare water tabs.

TO: Small half filled bontrager bottle of sealant (approx 30ml), small leyzene tool, 16g compressed air can plus compressed air can widget, couple of spare water tabs. On a big ride, I'll take 2x bottles of compressed air.  (To be fair I should probably ditch the compressed air and carry a decent hand pump).

25mm's pumped up to 90/95psi, 190 miles done over two days, of which 90 was offroad, bridleways, canal paths, farm tracks, gravel, rocks, tree roots, I dropped 10psi over the two days in one tyre and didn't notice until after I reached my destination. 

Malcom has written about his tubeless experiences, I don't agree 100% with all of it, but it's a good read - https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres  

For me if I get a cut or tear which is too big to seal, my ride is done, I accept that, however that's not happened thus far, in almost three years.

 

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tritecommentbot | 6 years ago
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This tubular sealant and spare tub you guys are carrying, how much does that weigh?

 

 

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Mungecrundle replied to tritecommentbot | 6 years ago
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unconstituted wrote:

This tubular sealant and spare tub you guys are carrying, how much does that weigh?

 

 

50g for a bottle of sealant, probably 5g for the valve core widget. Never bothered taking a spare tub.

Pretty similar to the weight of puncture repair patches and tyre levers?

Tubeless with sealant pre added; I'd feel reasonably confident not even taking a pump. So just the weight of the sealant already in the tyres.

However a tubular version of the same wheelset should be lighter in the first place.

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tritecommentbot replied to Mungecrundle | 6 years ago
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Mungecrundle wrote:
unconstituted wrote:

This tubular sealant and spare tub you guys are carrying, how much does that weigh?

 

 

50g for a bottle of sealant, probably 5g for the valve core widget. Never bothered taking a spare tub. Pretty similar to the weight of puncture repair patches and tyre levers? Tubeless with sealant pre added; I'd feel reasonably confident not even taking a pump. So just the weight of the sealant already in the tyres. However a tubular version of the same wheelset should be lighter in the first place.

 

50g for sealant sounds acceptable. Was imagining a large heavy can crying

Going to make the switch later in the year to tubulars. The weight difference between tubulars and clinchers is too good to ignore any longer... Worth even a little extra hassle. Last sticking point was the repair kit. Thought maybe carrying a heavy spare tub and a can of crap would have made it not worth it.

 

Think I could get away with going without the spare for most rides and maybe force myself to take it on 100 mile + efforts. Something like that.

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Mungecrundle | 6 years ago
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I use tubulars on my good bike (Continental Competitions at the moment), they are light, have a supple ride (probably more in my head), and I actually enjoy the 3 day pre gluing, tyre stretching and fitting ritual, but then I only do so every couple of years. They are re-assuringly expensive and a bit blingy. I also use disc brakes and there is something appealing about the idea that the rim has only 2 functions: aerodynamics and a concave glueing surface for the tyre. i.e it does not have to also hold a tyre bead under pressure, or provide a braking surface. My all up wheel weight (Reynold Assaults, tyres, valve core extenders, brake discs, skewers and cassette comes to 2230g which I reckon is pretty reasonable for a bullet proof aero wheelset.

As I only use them on my good bike they don't get high mileage or used unless the roads are dry. They do pick up nicks and gouges. Sharp stones can make holes down to the latex liner, however only 1 puncture which was laughably easy to fix. I always carry some Tufo tyre sealant a small plastic valve core widget and a pump. Remove core, squeeze some sealant into the tube, refit core, pump up, watch as brown bubbly froth at site of puncture seals itself like magic. Far far easier than wrestling a reluctant clincher off a rim any day.

Only just moved to tubeless on my MTB as I was getting a puncture pretty much every time I even went near a bridleway. They are infested by blackthorn cuttings all year round! I had been putting it off as it seemed a bit pfaffy, but I found a nice set of Shimano M765 wheels on eBay of a similar vintage and fitted some Schwalbe Nobby Nic's. It was actually easier than I thought it was going to be, but only with the use of a friend's compressor to get the tyres seated. Having added sealant, no punctures and you can just pull the thorns out leaving little green pinpricks of sealant. The bike, even on the nobblies, seems to have less rolling resistance.

With that experience, and assuming I had a suitable way of seating the tyre on the rim (maybe road bike tubulars can be seated with a good track pump?), I would definitely choose tubeless over clincher, and probably tubeless over tubular for a cheap set of wheels on a second best road bike. Add some sealant, fit and forget.

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kev-s | 6 years ago
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Have tubeless on the commuter and tubs on the good bike

 

Both have their pros and cons as stated above

 

I find changing a punctured tub at the side of the road much quicker/easier than dealing with a punctured tubeless tyre that needs a tube fitted (bit more messy) but one is really no worse than the other

 

 

 

 

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daviej | 6 years ago
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Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions.

 

I have Tubulars on both my fancy Summer wheels (Enve 4.5) and my slightly less fancy winter wheels (Tune C50). I have conti Comps on the Enve and Gatorskins on the Tunes. 

 

I tend to use the Effetto Mariposa tape rather than glue, I also use their sealant. I ride with a can of foam to get me home which works most of the time. 

 

The main point I was exploring is that Tubulars are often dismissed for being hard to deal with in the real world but I think that Tubeless are about the same, having the option of fitting an inner tube is pretty handy but about the same as carrying a spare Tub.

 

 

 

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Jimthebikeguy.com | 6 years ago
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As further (anecdotal) evidence; i have had three tubeless bikes, all in heavy use for at least 2 years. I havent noticed any punctures in that time. When i (occasionally) change the sealant, there is the odd nick or thorn in the tire, but it hasnt made any difference as it obviously repaired itself in seconds. Last weekend i did the dirty reiver on a tubeless setup - and i didnt puncture. Any setup that can survive that gets my vote 100%.

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dave atkinson | 6 years ago
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I've run tubeless on my main bike (kinesis tripster atr) for about three years now. the main difference in roadside repairs is that there haven't been any, at all, ever. maybe i've been lucky. certainly on the dirty reiver last weekend there was at least one person by the side of the road swearing at a tubeless tyre, and mike had to put a tube in one of his after he accidentally deflated it and didn't have the wherewithal to get it sealed again. so it's not a magic bullet

there's various things to consider and it'll depend on what you're doing. small holes will get fixed by the sealant. anything bigger than that will need some kind of repair. normally it's just a case of sticking a tyre boot on the inside and fitting a tube, the same as you would if you ripped your tubed tyre. i carry a single tube on most rides, and two on longer rides. but that's what i used to do before tubeless, too.

i like to carry all sorts of stuff with me on rides, and one of the things i carry is a needle and a length of dental floss, for emergency repairs to stuff. i've sewn up a hole in a tyre (not my own) once, and also fixed a shoe and an embarrassing hole in my shorts. dental floss is ace because it's super strong and it's also waxed so it's easy to pull through thick fabric, or the wall of a tyre. if you were on a longer tour then you'd likely be able to re-seal a tubeless tyre if you sewed up the hole. i haven't tried, but when my current tyres reach the end of their operational life i'll give it a go. to pop it back on the rim you'd probably need a CO2 cannister.

the pay-off for no faffing on the go with tubeless is extra faffing, checking sealant levels periodically, and when you're swapping tyres. faffing at home counts as fun though, right?

 

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700c | 6 years ago
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I remember surprising some guys wrestling with a puncture at the side of the road on ride London. (Everyone was puncturing due to atrocious conditions). Along I come with punctured tub, cursing my luck. I whip it off, put pre-glued spare on, inflated and off again with a cheery wave before they'd finished!

Admittedly tubs were a poor choice that day as the conditions became so bad, but they were later repaired at home with sealant.

I only use them now in good weather but I do think the negatives are overplayed. I suspect the best tubeless would have a lower rr but otherwise, after the faff of installation (no worse than tubeless surely), they are lighter, safer, wheels are often cheaper, can run at a greater range of pressures, they puncture less, and ride at least as well as the best clinchers w/latex inners.

Apart from that one ride (through foot high water! ) I've only ever punctured one tub and have done thousands of miles since.

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check12 | 6 years ago
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Tubular tyres have higher rolling resistance than the best tubeless (pro one) and normal tubed tyres (4000s etc. ) so less/no temptation to go for them for me. Www.bicyclerollingresistance.com 

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700c replied to check12 | 6 years ago
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check12 wrote:

Tubular tyres have higher rolling resistance than the best tubeless (pro one) and normal tubed tyres (4000s etc. ) so less/no temptation to go for them for me. Www.bicyclerollingresistance.com 

Not so according to your website (eg vittoria's corsa g speed tub and clincher have lower rr than the tubeless schwalbe), although not that many tubs are actually tested

A useful site but lab tests probably best taken with a pinch of salt.

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BehindTheBikesheds replied to check12 | 6 years ago
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check12 wrote:

Tubular tyres have higher rolling resistance than the best tubeless (pro one) and normal tubed tyres (4000s etc. ) so less/no temptation to go for them for me. Www.bicyclerollingresistance.com 

Yes that one site that uses one wide alloy rim for the test then yes, there's a smidge in it for the best tyre they have tested in favour of tubeless, does that apply to all tubeless v tubular at all pressures on all rims, on all surfaces, no it doesn't.

Added to which that corsa speed is wafer thin, you won't get many miles out of it and more likely to get a puncture that the sealant won't fix in which case putting in a tube it'll no longer be the fastest tyre will it...

They also tested the Gp4000SII in a 25mm which when fitted was 27mm measured, 2mm wider than the corsa speed tubeless (so a bit more comfortable right), they also fitted a heavy 100g tube, personally I've got on okay with supersonics because of the vectran puncture resistance of the 4000, so at say at a nt unreasonable 80psi you're looking at 2-3 Watts difference between the fastest tubeless and a GP4000SII clincher with a supersonic or latex tube, have more puncture resistance and a couple of thousand more miles before needing replacing, for me there'd be no temptation whatsoever.

riders rarely get their sweetspot bang on anyway with respect to front to rear pressures but if you're swapping a whole wheelset or two just to save a few watts either on a commute or a weekend ride out/audax/extortionate noddy hat ride then that's crackers IMHO.

 

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madcarew replied to check12 | 6 years ago
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check12 wrote:

Tubular tyres have higher rolling resistance than the best tubeless (pro one) and normal tubed tyres (4000s etc. ) so less/no temptation to go for them for me. Www.bicyclerollingresistance.com 

I'd like to see the figures to back this idea up. I strongly suspect it isn't true.  To my non-encyclopaedic knowledge, apples for apples, the best tub vs the best tubeless wins hands down on rolling resistance.... not that you would notice the difference.

On the OP

The main reason to use tubulars is weight and ride. Both of these to my mind are only important in a race situation. Tubed or tubeless for commuting and training, and if you want the very best tubs for racing. There's not much point in my mind to have lightweight tubs and then fill them with 100g of gunk. That's what the spare wheels in races are for. I throw my tubs away after a puncture as fixing is such a faff.

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calayanrail replied to madcarew | 6 years ago
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madcarew wrote:

check12 wrote:

Tubular tyres have higher rolling resistance than the best tubeless (pro one) and normal tubed tyres (4000s etc. ) so less/no temptation to go for them for me. Www.bicyclerollingresistance.com 

I'd like to see the figures to back this idea up. I strongly suspect it isn't true.  To my non-encyclopaedic knowledge, apples for apples, the best tub vs the best tubeless wins hands down on rolling resistance.... not that you would notice the difference.

On the OP

The main reason to use tubulars is weight and ride. Both of these to my mind are only important in a race situation. Tubed or tubeless for commuting and training, and if you want the very best tubs for racing. There's not much point in my mind to have lightweight tubs and then fill them with 100g of gunk. That's what the spare wheels in races are for. I throw my tubs away after a puncture as fixing is such a faff.

Vittoria Corsa Speed Open TLR is better than Vittoria Corsa Speed Tubular which is almost the best rolling tubular on the macket. 

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/schwalbe-pro-one-ht-tubular-2017

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simonmb | 6 years ago
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Tubular only makes sense for best bikes, best rides. The ride is plush, but you weigh this against the risk of inconvenience if you get a flat. I can't understand why anyone would go to the expense of fitting tubular wheels and tyres, and then fill it with sealant. If you're that concerned about getting a puncture, stick with clinchers (regular or tubeless) and carry a spare tube in case of emergencies. Save the tubs for the weekend.

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Jimthebikeguy.com | 6 years ago
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This ones a fairly simple one but there is a lot of resistance at the mo towards tubeless from some quarters (because its newish tech like discs). Tubeless for day to day use is the easiest and best thing by far, unless you like fixing punctures. And any ideas about it being a faff are ironic given that the word faff was invented to refer to tubular tires.

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CXR94Di2 | 6 years ago
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Tubeless with sealant, easy to repair incase of emergency, fit inner tube. Unlikely to get a puncture that doesn't self seal.

Tubular, carry foam or have sealant in tyre, I use Stan's sealant. Again unlikely to puncture that won't self seal. Emergency, carry phone and get a lift home :). Tubular can be really difficult to fix at the roadside.

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kevvjj | 6 years ago
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Without boring you with my bias/opinion about tyres... a roadside repair on a tubeless tyre is no different to a roadside repair on a tubed tyre (just put in a spare tube). It can be a tad messier... 

For a tubular, if you have added sealant and it still deflates then the hole is too big to fix with 'foam'.  You will need to rip the tyre off and replace with the spare you are carrying (you are carrying a spare tyre aren't you?) - if you have never done it before it will take ages (the reason why most tub users get it done at a shop) - if you are experienced, not so long...

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BehindTheBikesheds | 6 years ago
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You won't find many commuting on tubular but it's that type of riding that is usung tubeless more and more as well as leisure cycling (as in not competition).
Personally I don't use sealant in my tubs, I won't buy wafer thin tyres that are more likely to puncture. Currently use a 25mm conti comp front and a 27mm veliflex vlaandaren. Spendy up front but plush fast ride and I haven't flatted a tub in years (conti 4000SII before) but do take a 125ml can of foam sealant as a back up on rides which inflates and seals tyre instantly. Used to take a spare get you home tub if I was away or on a really long ride in case but not so much these days for day rides.
Are tubeless easier, in terms of on the spot fix well if the sealant works they look to be great but all that sealant, the faff of the tyre, biying new rims, the valve and so on, not for me, I'd rsther stick to normal clinchers and tubes for everything else other than the fast bike.
Worse rolling resistance, very likely, less costly, not even close, tubeless is expensive by comparison, more complicated and time consuming unless you're careless and puncture a lot and/or buy inappropriate tyres/don't inflate correctly, not to mention the sealant aspect.

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