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Time to upgrade to carbon and disc brakes?

Hello there,

I need advise on buying a new bike!

I started cycling last year. I bought my first bike used with not much mileage on it. A specialized Allez Elite 2009. 105 groupset with a alloy frame and a carbon fork. Pretty decent for a first bike. 

After my first summer season ( I'm from Canada so I only ride in summer ), I rode a bit more than 2000km. So it confirmed that I really liked cycling and now, I want to take my new favorite sport more seriously. 

Unfortunately I think I catched the cycling disease... I already want to upgrade. I already wondered about starting with buying new wheels, but honestly I am not willing to spend 750$+ on a bike that I paid 800$ and that I know is a bit outdated.

So I started to look for a completely new bike. Since it appears that disc brakes are here to stay, it seems logical to me to invest in the technology that will be in bikes for the future. 

The best price/quality bike that I've found is the new 2017 Giant TCR advanced 2 disc. Advanced carbon, Hydraulic brakes and most recent 105 groupset. 2400$ CAD. See full specs here : https://www.giant-bicycles.com/fr-ca/bikes/model/tcr.advanced.2.disc/291...

It would be relatively a big investment for me so I am hesitating a lot if I should go ahead and buy it. I am wondering if a new bike like this will have a huge difference on my biking experience.

At first, it seams obvious... a 2009 aluminum bike VS a 2017 carbon disc bike. But at the end of the day, both Bike have the same category of groupset and surprisingly the giant has only a pound or so less... 

Many questions... 

Is it really worth to upgrade ? Where will be the major difference? Is it too soon to invest in a disc brakes bike ? Do you have a better suggestion for me?

Thank you

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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23 comments

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EddyBerckx | 7 years ago
2 likes

Don't care what you choose but re disc maintenance - its ZERO for modern hydraulic disc brakes. Changes the pads every 4000 miles - a 5 minute job - and that's it.

 

theres  far more hassle when adjusting rim brakes, especially as they wear down and need toeing in to stop squeaks etc.

 

choose rim brakes cos of the weight and cost by all means...and there is less advantage if you're only riding in dry weather...but maintenance? No.

 

thats for hydraulic disc brakes, old school cable ones are barely the same thing - avoid

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DaSy | 7 years ago
0 likes

Adamthekiwi wrote:

@DaSy on fixing squeaky brakes - I've never had to discard a pair of pads due to contamination, so I'd say his "[...] never recover from [contamination ...]" may be tending towards hyperbole.

 

I have been in the bike repair business for many years, so have seen a lot of bikes go through my hands. Having seen in the hundreds of disc related issues for repair over the years, I can assure you it was not hyperbole. A common problem with people who are not great with maintenance is that they just keep oiling their chains, but never seem to clean the old stuff off. The oil gets flung all over the place and it takes very little oil to contaminate a disc pad.

As I said, cleaning is another culprit, as most detergents only temporarily break the bonds that hold the oil molecules together, so hold the oil in solution. This solution gets washed all over the place, and if there is enough oil or grease in it, this can lead to contamination too. There is also a propensity for people to spray oil onto their chain, the overspray can easily find its way onto the pads. Bleeding brakes without removing the pads is also another common way of contaminating the pads. 

Car pads don't suffer in the same way as they are generating so much more heat due to the increased friction required to bring tonnes in weight to an abrupt halt, which burns off the contaninants.

Brake cleaner doesn't shift it usually, but baking the pads in the oven to burn off the contaminant can be successful, but better to use a blow torch and hold the pad in a vice, it sometimes works.

I am by no means suggesting that everyone will always contaminate their pads on every bike, but I promise you that I was not making it up for effect, this was just my experience of repairing bikes for the last 10 years.

 

Edit to add, here is a link to one of many articles about this issue over the years. This one from 2012 on Pink Bike is a good illustration. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Tech-Tuesday-Silence-That-Squeaky-Disc-Bra...

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adamthekiwi | 7 years ago
0 likes

Hi @Road44,

Discs vs rim brakes: go with whatever you prefer. Rim brakes will not be obsolete, particularly on road bikes, any time in the foreseeable future. Like @Mungecrundle, I definitely prefer discs, and all my bikes are now so-equipped, but good, well-maintained rim brakes work just as well in the dry and adequately in the wet. The main difference is the consistency of discs and, only if you go hydraulic, the improved modulation - although the latter is marginal (I ran Magura hydraulic rim brakes for a while on and off-road, and they were absolutely awsome in the dry). I disagree with @IanEdward on the maintenance front; I guess, though, that once you're used to a job it becomes easy. I also disagree with @DaSy on fixing squeaky brakes - I've never had to discard a pair of pads due to contamination, so I'd say his "[...] never recover from [contamination ...]" may be tending towards hyperbole.

@Mungecrundle and @TypeVertigo are right: upgrading your existing bike will be effective and cheaper - but @VeloBot is also right: the right bike(s) for you (for anyone) is(are) the one(s) that you love: because, that's what you'll ride. If you don't love the Allez any more and you have money set aside for a replacement, find a good home for it and take the cash to your local (or far-afield) bike shop and try as many bikes as you can in (or slightly above - you may be able to bargain) your price range. The one that makes you smile the most is the right bike for you right now. Don't be fooled into thinking there are any other criteria that are important (although they might all contribute) - the bike that makes you smile the most is your (current) perfect bike.

I should also add that none of my bikes are as they came out of the shop - two of 4 were built from frames, all have been upgraded to some extent (one is like Trigger's broom, from "Only Fools and Horses" - every single component has been replaced at least once). That process often only makes you love your bike more.

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peted76 | 7 years ago
0 likes

'I am wondering if a new bike like this will have a huge difference on my biking experience.'

FWIW, it's a difficult question to answer.

Any change of a bike will change the experience, but where your expecations are is what counts. Personally I don't think my expectations were quite met when I brought a posh bike a while ago.. I didn't fly up the hills like a mountain goat or make pushing on the flat any easier despite being the price of an expensive family holiday, the dropping a kilo and gaining carbon wheels... but I smiled for months and broke a few PR's becuase of it. Was it worth the money, hell yeah! really.. well maybe..... has it changed my life and turned me into a cat3 racer... defo not.

I'm with VeloBot.

 

 

 

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TypeVertigo | 7 years ago
0 likes

I was tempted to reply a couple days ago before the whole rims vs discs thing boiled over. That just leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

I'm with Mungecrundle on this. Unless the Allez doesn't fit you as well as it should, keep riding it, get it properly maintained, and save your money.

I don't feel you're as curious about disc brakes that it warrants throwing your CAD at a TCR Adv 2 - if you don't have at least that, then why bother?

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peted76 replied to TypeVertigo | 7 years ago
3 likes

TypeVertigo wrote:

I was tempted to reply a couple days ago before the whole rims vs discs thing boiled over. That just leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

It's the carbon fibre, gets stuck in your teeth. Floss more.

 

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TypeVertigo replied to peted76 | 7 years ago
0 likes

peted76 wrote:

TypeVertigo wrote:

I was tempted to reply a couple days ago before the whole rims vs discs thing boiled over. That just leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

It's the carbon fibre, gets stuck in your teeth. Floss more.

 

Had a laugh at this! Cheers  1

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Mungecrundle | 7 years ago
1 like

For that kind of money and without meaning to be snobbish you are not really looking at a top end dream bike. Although that TCR gets very good reports from reviewers who ride a lot of bicycles. Personally I'd be looking at something second hand or horribly unfashionable from left over 2016 stock. I prefer discs but rim braked bikes will not be obsolete any time soon.

Wheels, bars, pedals, saddle are all good investments for upgrades when budget allows and can be transferred relatively easily when the time comes to move on.

Hard to say what kind of difference you might feel from a new bike, Unless your current bike is horribly wrong sized or something I suspect that it may be less than the difference that you might notice following a good strip down and clean.

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Johnnyvee | 7 years ago
0 likes

And so the debate on rim brakes v disc brakes rattles along, or possibly squeals.. Is this helping Road44 out.
Velo Bot has the best advice in his last point...buy what you're going to be happiest with, can afford and justify. If at all possible try before you buy.
Shiny new bike... Hmm.
Giant are good and having looked over a mates Giant Propel Advanced I now want one. Gorgeous thing.

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keirik | 7 years ago
2 likes

just to be awkward...

My winter bike has 105 discs

My summer bike has ultegra rim brakes

I went out on Monday on my summer bike for the first time this year, and nearly came off as the brakes are so much better than the disc brakes on my winter bike.

That's not to say rims are better than discs, just that it's not a straight forward equation.
Personally I prefer my rim brakes, and they're a lot easier to maintain.
Makes changing a spoke a lot easier too, no need to remove the disc as I had to do last week

 

YOMV

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IanEdward | 7 years ago
0 likes

Cheers DaSy, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person who got hung up on the noise issue.

I guess it's easy to forget lots of people who ride might not even be comfortable adjusting or maintaining rim brakes (there's a guy in my office who could rip the legs off the majority of riders and yet who can't do even the simplest maintenance on his bike).

Possibly for those folks the benefits of discs outweight the drawbacks, a neglected cheap hydraulic disc probably still performs better than a neglected cheap calliper brake...

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DaSy | 7 years ago
2 likes

IanEdward, your post was spot-on as far as I am concerned.

As a bike mechanic for many years, running my own maintenance business, I saw a constant stream of bikes being brought to me for minor adjustments to disc brakes on MTBs that the rider was perfectly capable of solving on caliper brakes on their road bikes.

Squealing really was the main source of frustration for many riders, with a common problem being disc pads that were either not bedded in well at the beginning, or some contaminant had found its way onto the pads and they never really recover from (oil from an over-lubricated chain, or washed onto the pads when cleaning). On rim brakes, a quick wipe over with alcohol sorts this out, with disc pads, they need to be replaced which starts to get expensive.

I had a few riders come to me saying they tried to avoid using their brakes due to the embarrassing sound they made which made passers-by look round! This seems to negate any improvement in power in such circumstances.

I am not anti disc brakes, but see the benefit on an MTB, with the braking surface being away from the mud, and much improved mud clearance at the tyre. But on a road bike I feel the improvement is minor, well maintained rims and Swissstop pads have never failed to stop me within the constraints of tyre grip.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will also say that I love the relative simplicity of a road bike, so electronic shifting and disc brakes really detract from the ethos of what I think a road bike should be, not to mention the aesthetics are just wrong! I am an old school roadie though, so not really the target market for all of this technology!

 

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BeatPoet replied to DaSy | 7 years ago
0 likes

DaSy wrote:

IanEdward, your post was spot-on as far as I am concerned.

As a bike mechanic for many years, running my own maintenance business, I saw a constant stream of bikes being brought to me for minor adjustments to disc brakes on MTBs that the rider was perfectly capable of solving on caliper brakes on their road bikes.

Squealing really was the main source of frustration for many riders, with a common problem being disc pads that were either not bedded in well at the beginning, or some contaminant had found its way onto the pads and they never really recover from (oil from an over-lubricated chain, or washed onto the pads when cleaning). On rim brakes, a quick wipe over with alcohol sorts this out, with disc pads, they need to be replaced which starts to get expensive.

I had a few riders come to me saying they tried to avoid using their brakes due to the embarrassing sound they made which made passers-by look round! This seems to negate any improvement in power in such circumstances.

I am not anti disc brakes, but see the benefit on an MTB, with the braking surface being away from the mud, and much improved mud clearance at the tyre. But on a road bike I feel the improvement is minor, well maintained rims and Swissstop pads have never failed to stop me within the constraints of tyre grip.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will also say that I love the relative simplicity of a road bike, so electronic shifting and disc brakes really detract from the ethos of what I think a road bike should be, not to mention the aesthetics are just wrong! I am an old school roadie though, so not really the target market for all of this technology!

 

Having both rim and disc brake bikes I have to say that I feel a lot safer in the wet with discs. In the dry I'm not bothered either way.

Avatar
Scheißenberg | 7 years ago
2 likes

"Is it really worth to upgrade?"

Yes. A new bike is always worth it.

"Where will be the major difference?"

Yes. A shiny new bike that you love will make you ride harder.

"Is it too soon to invest in a disc brakes bike?"

Not too soon, just unnecessary.
Rims are simpler, prettier and pro!
Have you seen the hoods on hydro levers?

"Do you have a better suggestion for me?"

Afraid not. Whatever bike you fall in love with will make you go infinitely faster.
Desire is a strange beast.

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Woodsman | 7 years ago
0 likes

£1800 plus p&p will get you a Canyon Ultimate CF SL disk 8.0, that weighs in at 8.2kg. 

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Road44 replied to Woodsman | 7 years ago
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Woodsman wrote:

£1800 plus p&p will get you a Canyon Ultimate CF SL disk 8.0, that weighs in at 8.2kg. 

 

i love Canyon bikes, but unfortunately canyon doesn't ship to Canada 

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IanEdward | 7 years ago
3 likes

I've been having the same debate as I may have the best part of £2,000 to spend on a new road bike in September.

Recent experiences with discs (both on my new mountainbike and my dad's new 'flat bar' road bike) have convinced me I wouldn't want discs on a road bike.

Reasons:

1) The old cliche. I don't need the extra power. I never found my 105 callipers wanting for power, 1 finger on the drops was amazing. I completely accept that many might find callipers underpowered however. I would never turn down free 'extra power' but not at the expense of the following:

2) Noise. I've used discs for years, mostly on mountainbikes but also on a touring bike (Salsa Vaya) and recently on my commuter (a Trek Superfly with slick tyres). Most of them have been very quiet in the dry, but all of them have made noise to some degree in the wet. So what? you say. Well I would genuinely prefer a slightly longer stopping distance over squeeling, yowling warbling discs. Sure once they warm up and dry off they're great, but for street use, or rides that don't feature huge long descents, they may never warm up or dry up enough, unless you drag them a little before hand. But guess what? Callipers work great in the wet too if you drag them a little beforehand to dry the rim off...

I'm sure people will come along and say I've got the wrong pads or something, but I'm fed up trawling forums and reviews trying to figure out which pads may or may not make less noise in the wet, since I already know the answer - rubber calliper brake pads!

3) Maintenance. This is a closer call, I'd maybe even agree that rim brakes require more maintenance, especially if you're a hardcore winter rider, but the thing is in most instances I've found rim brake maintenance easier. Buckled wheels are easier to sort than warped discs. Calliper brakes are much easier to align and center perfectly on a rim than a disc brake calliper is to keep perfectly aligned and drag free on a disc. Cables are easier to replace than hydraulic discs are to bleed. 

Note I'm not saying the maintenance on discs is especially difficult, just that I believe for a home mechanic with limited tools, and perhaps limited space, I'd suggest calliper/rim brakes are easier.

4) Weight/spec. When I was speccing my dream £2000 road bike I realised how much more I could get for my money if I ditched disc brakes, and how much weight I could save! (approx 10kg with discs, 8.7kg without). It also gave me more choice of lighter/better wheels, for instance I'm one of those perverts that prefers cup and cone hubs, especially the ones with simple, spanner free adjustment like Shimano Ultegra and Fulcrum/Campag. You don't get that with disc wheels...

Anyway, my point is that if you don't desperately want the power of disc brakes, you really need to ask why you would spec them. I prefer a bike which doesn't make a hellish racket when braking in the wet and that doesn't require a degree in black magic to keep the brakes perfectly aligned and drag free*.

Oh and did I mention the dodgy leaking seals on some Shimano disc brakes? My dad seems to have suffered two sets now. No thanks.

 

*exaggerating for effect

Avatar
Road44 replied to IanEdward | 7 years ago
0 likes

IanEdward wrote:

I've been having the same debate as I may have the best part of £2,000 to spend on a new road bike in September.

Recent experiences with discs (both on my new mountainbike and my dad's new 'flat bar' road bike) have convinced me I wouldn't want discs on a road bike.

Reasons:

1) The old cliche. I don't need the extra power. I never found my 105 callipers wanting for power, 1 finger on the drops was amazing. I completely accept that many might find callipers underpowered however. I would never turn down free 'extra power' but not at the expense of the following:

2) Noise. I've used discs for years, mostly on mountainbikes but also on a touring bike (Salsa Vaya) and recently on my commuter (a Trek Superfly with slick tyres). Most of them have been very quiet in the dry, but all of them have made noise to some degree in the wet. So what? you say. Well I would genuinely prefer a slightly longer stopping distance over squeeling, yowling warbling discs. Sure once they warm up and dry off they're great, but for street use, or rides that don't feature huge long descents, they may never warm up or dry up enough, unless you drag them a little before hand. But guess what? Callipers work great in the wet too if you drag them a little beforehand to dry the rim off...

I'm sure people will come along and say I've got the wrong pads or something, but I'm fed up trawling forums and reviews trying to figure out which pads may or may not make less noise in the wet, since I already know the answer - rubber calliper brake pads!

3) Maintenance. This is a closer call, I'd maybe even agree that rim brakes require more maintenance, especially if you're a hardcore winter rider, but the thing is in most instances I've found rim brake maintenance easier. Buckled wheels are easier to sort than warped discs. Calliper brakes are much easier to align and center perfectly on a rim than a disc brake calliper is to keep perfectly aligned and drag free on a disc. Cables are easier to replace than hydraulic discs are to bleed. 

Note I'm not saying the maintenance on discs is especially difficult, just that I believe for a home mechanic with limited tools, and perhaps limited space, I'd suggest calliper/rim brakes are easier.

4) Weight/spec. When I was speccing my dream £2000 road bike I realised how much more I could get for my money if I ditched disc brakes, and how much weight I could save! (approx 10kg with discs, 8.7kg without). It also gave me more choice of lighter/better wheels, for instance I'm one of those perverts that prefers cup and cone hubs, especially the ones with simple, spanner free adjustment like Shimano Ultegra and Fulcrum/Campag. You don't get that with disc wheels...

Anyway, my point is that if you don't desperately want the power of disc brakes, you really need to ask why you would spec them. I prefer a bike which doesn't make a hellish racket when braking in the wet and that doesn't require a degree in black magic to keep the brakes perfectly aligned and drag free*.

Oh and did I mention the dodgy leaking seals on some Shimano disc brakes? My dad seems to have suffered two sets now. No thanks.

 

*exaggerating for effect

 

yeah, since I do not need so much the stopping power of disc brakes, it might be a better idea to save weight and stay with rim brakes

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fenix | 7 years ago
0 likes

Rim brakes have been fine for decades and are a doddle to sort out. Discs - can be a nightmare. 

 

There's no standard in them either so you may jump to the wrong spec ? Through axles are a pain for bike stands, turbos and bike racks. 

Stick with rim brakes and then your wheels are compatible too.

 

If you want electronic I'd go Etap over di2.  Why switch to batteries PLUS cables ? 

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Johnnyvee | 7 years ago
0 likes

I had a Norco threshold and loved it. That is until some toe rag nicked it but it was a great bike and they do a carbon version of that and other bikes in their range. As they are Canadian would you not get a better deal with a domestic manufacturer? Just a thought.
Disc brakes by the way - I have them and would never get rim brakes again though not all disc brakes are equal. Personal choice of course and as likely to split opinion as a few other choice subjects.

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Road44 replied to Johnnyvee | 7 years ago
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Johnnyvee wrote:

I had a Norco threshold and loved it. That is until some toe rag nicked it but it was a great bike and they do a carbon version of that and other bikes in their range. As they are Canadian would you not get a better deal with a domestic manufacturer? Just a thought. Disc brakes by the way - I have them and would never get rim brakes again though not all disc brakes are equal. Personal choice of course and as likely to split opinion as a few other choice subjects.

 

my main domestic manufacturer are Devinci and Argon18 but they sell the kind of bike I want way pricier than what I can find from a big manufacturer like Giant  

 

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hsiaolc | 7 years ago
1 like

Rim Vs Disc is night and day.  Makes massive difference. 

Good that you have vision (well I think).  The future of rim is dying and just a matter of time just like with MTB bikes. 

I have two road with Disc now and will never go back to rim, and if I have to I will choose not to ride then.  Go Di2 if you can too.  Again massive difference. 

When you get both of these and ride it, it will bring a smile to your face. 

Don't listen to anyone else especaily those that are short sighted but think they have vision.  The worst kind. 

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trohos | 7 years ago
0 likes

Check this, http://fitwerx.com/carbon-fiber-frame-manufacturing-techniques-part-one-...

In this price range you can buy a cannondale caad 12 disc with ultegra or a better choice is to build one. My opinion is, that if a budjet is above from 1800 euro, is better to build it. Many pros still use dual pivot brakes. Surely the moving parts, like the wheels or bottom bracket-crankset

Good luck.

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