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It's time to call bullshit on the 'Eco Bike Cleaning' sector
This has got me cross: http://road.cc/content/review/174384-green-oil-green-clean -
At £7.99 for 1000ml, it's about *532 times* the times the price of using dishwashing liquid.
Ecover washing up liquid is £2.25 for 1L - or about *thirty* hefty 33ml squeezes into a bucket that will give you about 5L of hot, soapy (but eco-friendly) water to deal to multiple bikes. I make that about £0.015 per litre (You could choose to use a lot less water too, but I like it sloshy).
What about as a degreaser though?
£8 for 5 *litres* (£1.60/L) of Swarfega Oil & Grease remover (B&Q/Toolstation) does a bang-up job. And according the hazmat sheet, it's biodegradable and non-hazardous: this stuff is *designed* to end up in waterways and treatment plants, as well as your lawn/garden beds
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1640410.pdf(link is external)
The Green Oil equivalent 'Clean Chain Degreasing Gel' is £4 for 100ml - or £40/L. That's *twenty-five times* more expensive than the Swarfega stuff.
You may wibble on about disc brakes being all marketing. You may maintain that no-one needs 11-speeds, or that one cable feels *exactly* the same as another. Meanwhile, the biggest scam in cycling today is quietly sitting on the shelves of your LBS: bike-specific 'eco' cleaners & degreasers.
[edit 30/1/16: Actually, *any* bike-specific cleaner/degreaser. but 'Eco' ones are even more cynical.]
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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I enjoyed reading this zombie thread - must have missed it two years ago. Thanks for resurrecting it, Mark N.
Just as an aside,a friend who works for a Govt agency which runs pick ups and vans has been told that they can no longer wash them on site. The vehicles have to be taken to an approved carwash. The reasoning is that the chemicals used will contaminate the ground.
The vehicles cannot even be washed with water only as the management claim that the dirt from the vehicles will cause contamination,and we're just talking mud here. Next to the compound where the vehicles are kept is a jetwash happily used by mtb'ers to clear the dirt off their bikes.
The dirt on the vans is going to be mostly road dirt, a mixture of tyre rubber and brake dust, among other stuff. Mud too, of course, but I'm sure that's not they're worried about. It is a little bit silly because of course road dirt gets washed into drains all the time, but it's not a totally crazy worry - ideally we would not want the ground contaminated with it.
So mountain bikers clearing mud off their bikes are fine. So long as road bikers don't use the jet wash there's no problem
Lots of flippant retorts here, however in all seriousness, there's probably a very nice article in here for someone to research.
Motor Oil on chains used by World Tour mechanics? !!
Who can eat the most Fenwick Foaming Degreaser competition?
What is this 'Wickens & Soderstrom No.5 lube' you speak of?
I'm sure there's one of those degreasing rinse tests to be done here AKA Daz/Persil/Arial washing powder stylee?
And a sticky oil test going the other way?
And while you're at it, why stop there, what about an actual rinse test with persil/daz and arial to see which gets the oil out of your trousers the best?
Going back to the original topic - I can't see why you are singling out 'Eco bike cleaning products' as being a particular rip-off. In terms of price the Green Oil bike cleaner that has you in such a lather is pretty much on a par with most other bike cleaners eco or otherwise. List price on a litre of Muc-off is £9 not that you're likely to have to pay full list for it online, but chances are you won't pay full list for the Green Oil one either.
As for chain cleaning - got to say I really like the Fenwicks Foaming Degreaser - environmentally friendly enough for Mr Fenwick to eat the stuff during the press demo. The 200ml tin I got at that demo still hasn't run out and that must be four years ago at least (and yes, I do clean my chain regularly). When it does run out I shall buy some more.
Missed this Tony. I agree, it's 'Bike Cleaners In General' that are a rip-off. The 'Eco' label is to me just a further layer of cynical Marketing BS bandwagon-riding.
I don't think it's possible to get higher eco-cred than Ecover dishwashing liquid, and also that product has to deal with seriously nasty baked-on shite (well, in our house anyway. kids burning milk on to the bottom of cast-iron pans etc)
Again I posit that the solution that Muc-Off sell you for $9/L is absolutely no more effective at getting a bike clean than a few pence worth of Ecover/Fairy in a half-bucket of hot water.
As above, I'd LOVE to see an independent test of this. I doubt very much that the manufacturers would.
I know of one manufacturer who decided not to productise their developed world-beating degreaser, after the chemical patent search showed that they had just spent a considerable sum to re-invent Fairy liquid.
After experimenting with all kinds of products and techniques I now use finish line wet lube in the winter and 3-in-1 oil in the summer. As posted above, the secret to a clean chain is to apply sparingly to each roller, work into the chain by spinning the pedals for a minute or so, then fastidiously wiping away any excess from the outside of the chain. This usually has the added benefit of taking some extra dirt with it.
I don't use degreaser on chains any more; generally just a thorough wiping down before and after lubrication. Occasionally if the whole bike's having a wash it will get a scrub with some soapy water too.
I'm quite concerned that the o.p is using large quantities of di-hydrogen monoxide. You've got to be careful around that stuff.
Kinda related question seeing as we have some chemists on the topic, is cycle specific wet lube (~£8 for 100ml) is any better than a bottle of 3in1 (£2)?
A basic oil will attract dirt and keep it stuck. After an hour your drivetrain will be black with it, held in suspension as a grinding paste for all those lovely metal-metal interactions. And cleaning it off requires a properly-aggressive degreaser.
I'm liking the Wickens & Soderstrom No.5 lube a lot - review published soon.
Given a £14 bottle of decent lube can last a year, it's a much less volatile value-for-money equation than £8 for a litre of bikewash that's gone after a few weeks.
Any standard household oil will do BUT after applying it you wipe it all off again.
Run drops of oil on your chain and work the chain through the gears a number of times (say for 30-60 seconds). Then wipe off all the residual oil. The reason is that, as Kiwimike says, thick oil left on the chain attracts dirt and keeps it there as a grinding paste. However, the place you actually want the oil is in the rollers and between the link plates. Once you have worked it in there, you then wipe the visible-dirt-attracting-excess off and you have a well oiled, shiny chain, which will stay that way. The thicker the oil the less likely it is to wash out in wet conditions. Personally I just use a few drops of 10w 40 that goes in my car engine. This tip was given to me by a close friend who is a current world tour bike mechanic and has served me well for years, on MTB and road. Importantly you clean the chain with soap and water before you oil it, never with a de-greaser.
FTFY
And yes, that's even with a thorough wipe down afterwards.
Should one wear a helmet when using any of these products?
Only if you're doin' it in the nude.
Yes, but the magic helmet only works in conjunction with hi vis.
Cycle-specific products are always more expensive than general purpose ones, be it chain lube, grease, bike wash and so on. But at least with Green Oil you are getting *genuinely* environmentally friendly products from a *genuinely* environmentally friendly business. This is NOT true of the others - they might write 'biodegradable' on the packaging but the products are usually not naturally (or ethically) sourced and their ecological footprint is much bigger.
There are huge price differences in all markets. A Specialized Venge costs far more than an Allez. Dura-Ace pedals twice as much as the very similar 105s, and people on here will spend £500 or £1,000 on wheels when a pair costing £150 would be fine. Do we demand a boycott of Dura-Ace pedals or £500 wheels?
A Ranger Rover is more than a Honda CR-V, a TAG Heuer more than a Timex. A Macbook Pro more than an Acer laptop. A hardback more than a paperback (with exactly the same words inside!). Diamonds more than that Zircon stuff.
I have used Ecover WUL for years, it does the job perfectly well and I agree, the scare stories about salt in WUL are bullshit - at least in Ecover. I know, I checked a long time ago. Green Oil chain lube is a similar price to other bike chain lubes, it works well for me and lasts ages so I can justify it.
From the Swarfega MSDS you linked to:
TETRAPOTASSIUM PYROPHOSPHATE, 2-AMINOETHANOL, BENZENE SULPHONIC ACID, SODIUM XYLENE SULPHONATE, ISOTRIDECANOL
You think these things are good for the environment and your skin? I doubt it. There are better (safer) products around, and TBH a nail brush with normal soap and a tiny bit of sugar works just as well to scrub your paws. As for degreasers, the eco-friendly citrus ones seem effective for me, I've not used my solitary tin of nasty Jizer for well over a decade.
If you want to have a bitch about ripoff pricing then look at brands like Muc-Off, who are charging a lot more for poncy crap - £9 for a brush, FFS! I'm sure Wilko will have something similar for £1.99.
Why not let people spend their money on what they want?
I'm not doubting they are nice people. Just that like-for-like, paying 25 to 500 times the odds for a product with basically the same claims (biodegradeable, non-hazardous) just doesn't make sense to me. I could take the hundreds of pounds saved and purchase a block of rainforest, thereby making a real difference without feeling greenmailed.
It's listed as both non-hazardous and biodegradable. I didn't say you would want to eat it, slather it on your eyeballs, or raise fish in it. Unless you're accusing the lab that did the testing and the manufacturer/retailers of criminal conspiracy, I'll go with their verdict, thanks.
Many people are selling 'eco-friendly' products targeted at affluent cyclists. This is just one example - and at least this one apparently works. Many don't.
People can spend money on what they like. I'm not stopping anyone spending anything, just calling bullshit on what seems to be questionable extra eco-smugness.
FWIW, I purchased a brush set from Finish Line maybe 10 years ago. It still works, many, many hundreds of washes later. Would the Wilko brush last as long? dunno.
Do you doubt it because you know what they are, or because they have chemically-sounding names and so must therefore be evil?
- TETRAPOTASSIUM PYROPHOSPHATE is a salt composed of pyrophosphate and sodium ions. Toxicity is approximately twice that of table salt when ingested orally.
- 2-AMINOETHANOL, or ethanolamine is an amino alcohol; a colourless, viscous liquid that smells like ammonia. Its derivatives are widespread in nature, e.g. lipids.
- BENZENE SULPHONIC ACID is the simplest aromatic sulfonic acid. It forms white deliquescent sheet crystals or a white waxy solid that is soluble in water. It is strongly acidic (but so is lemon juice).
- SODIUM XYLENE SULPHONATE is a surfactant, often found in shampoo because of its ability to serve as a wetting agent. Approved by the FDA, considered a low-hazard ingredient.
- ISOTRIDECANOL is a fatty alcohol used as a lubricant and surfactant.
Are they *good* for your skin? That depends entirely on your definition of good. If any of these seriously concern you, stop using soaps, shampoos and shower gels.
Are they bad for the environment? They're all found in the environment. Of course, if you release several tonnes of any of them into a river in a day, they'll have a huge impact. In the amounts that you release into the drainage system over a bike-cleaning session, they have a negligible impact.
Using that to clean your bike will have a much less profound impact on the environment than your daily shower.
Current leader in 'Internet Comment of the Year - 2016' competition.
You, Sir, are my new hero. And this is why I love Road.CC - the forums have lurking industrial chemists with a high ability to string together a coherently devastating counter-argument.
Given that Benzene is toxic and a carcinogen and that Xylene and Toluene are toxic and under suspicion as carcinogens, I would be wary of washing my hands with simple compounds of these aromatic hydrocarbons. I'm aware that they degrade rapidly if discharged into the enviroment, but I think that the hand cleaning problem is sufficiently solved with soap or sodium lauryl sulphate and chipped nut shells or sugar. Citrus oils also contain carcinogens. However, just being alive carries a cancer risk and death is a certainty. This discussion needs to be tempered by comparing it with the other marginally dangerous activities that you engage in. (If we shun carcinogens, should we not also shun the guardrails on road bridges? I'm looking at you Peter Sagan:)
I was told ages ago not to use washing up liquid for bikes and cars because it has too many corrosive salts. Can anyone confirm or deny that? (I do know you're meant to rinse it off). You can get 5L of car shampoo pretty cheap abyway.
I'm with you on generic degreaser though.
Urban myth. The amount of 'salt' is tiny. Certainly a hell of a lot less than what you happily plaster your bike with for hundreds of hours a year, if you ride in the UK.
Been using dishwashing liquid for many years. Never seen a hint of corrosion. Like anything, rinse well - dishwashing liquid is designed to rinse away completely.
I always thought Swarfega was for cleaning your hands, not degreasing your bike or anything else.
You do know Swarfega make more than one product, right?