OK for London, why not the rest of us ?

ianrobo wrote:

As to Birmingham/London debate, some figures last year showed more and more people moving to Birmingham from London because of the housing costs and is a reason supporters of HS2 use.

But, but, you'd have to live in *Birmingham*

Nothing useful to add really; other than I don't think you'd find many cyclists, based in London or otherwise, who would argue against spending money on cycling schemes all over the country - the more the better IMO. I'd hesitate to assume there is some kind of conspiracy against everywhere outside of the M25 - I think we just suffer from uneven devolution.

ianrobo wrote:

Get this right teaboy I fully support 100% what London have done with everything, the infrastructure, these rules etc.

Yes some designs could be better etc but the general mood is correct.

What I am saying is that London can only do this because of the vast amount of money. For example to police the Lorry ban, we could not do it here, not enough police etc.

How can we campaign for something that money can not allow to happen here and elsewhere ?

It is a money issue pure and simple, as I showed with the links, London has the cash to do these things and police them.

I'm not really sure what you want. Would you rather the money spent on cycle infra in London was spread really thinly across the country? How would that actually get anything on the ground? How many people would it help? Surely it's better to get something good down *somewhere* that will show that it's possible, doesn't cause the end of the world and actually encourages people to ride. At the moment that place is London, but other places are already following. Look at what's happening in Leicester - some decent-looking protected infrastructure being built there at the moment. I agree that funding needs to increase, and the LCC and others are campaigning for that nationally.

These lorry changes are not publicly-funded. It's perfectly possible to campaign for stuff before funding is in place - the #space4cycling campaign is doing just that. When campaigning works, funding is found.

ianrobo wrote:

Get this right teaboy I fully support 100% what London have done with everything, the infrastructure, these rules etc.

Yes some designs could be better etc but the general mood is correct.

What I am saying is that London can only do this because of the vast amount of money. For example to police the Lorry ban, we could not do it here, not enough police etc.

How can we campaign for something that money can not allow to happen here and elsewhere ?

It is a money issue pure and simple, as I showed with the links, London has the cash to do these things and police them.

No, it's not a money issue, it's one of getting the regulations through.

If you think there'll be a 'vast amount of money', think again. The Met have various road campaigns from time-to-time, this was probably just one of various spot-checks, and was the day the new regulations come in.

"The scheme will operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and will be enforced by the police, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency and the joint TfL and DfT-funded Industrial HGV Taskforce (IHTF). "

from https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/february/mayor-con...

It's all very well complaining about devolution, but the reality is it can be easier to get things through on a local level...plus if it relied on Government (particularly the current one) it'd probably just get stalled - which can be an advantage of devolution - eg article on bbc breakfast this morning, Scotland NHS fund air ambulances, England/Wales are charity-based, N. Ireland doesn't have one.

In the 27-odd yrs I've lived in Greater London (2 near the new Olympic Park when it was Eastway, the balance nr Kingston/N Surrey) it's not so much 'London getting all the infrastructure' as general - and gradual - renewal on the whole. Some of the main infrastructure changes have been the result of redevelopment - eg Docklands/DLR, N Greenwich/Jubilee Line. Crossrail1/2 more recently to ease cross-city travel and free up other parts of the network.

It's worth bearing mind that traditionally tube changes in London have been **very** slow to occur as employment numbers wander up and down, prior to the Jubilee Line extention and DLR I don't think it had changed much for decades..

But it's very easy to spot a feature eg http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/07/london-gets-24-time...
and get up in arms about it, but simply looking at numbers misses the point.

The density of people, traffic, and commuters is on a completely different scale in London compared to much of the rest of the UK - it's not a relatively compact centre with urban sprall. To do anything at all gets VERY expensive very quickly, and in spades in the case of Crossrail.

Outside of the centre the only infrastructure projects I can recall in the last 20-odd years are a Croydon tramway. FWIW once you get out of the outermost travelcard zone 6 (where I used to live) ticket prices/travelcards get a lot more expensive because of the train operators...and a lot of people travel in from outside zone 6. Where I am - only a few miles away from zone 6 - I have to use the train (min fare 3.50-4.50) to get the few stops into zone 6, and bus services here outside the zone are very patchy - more akin to the 'Midlands Red' network in/around Brum (well, that's what it was 30yrs ago). Where I used to live I was *just* at the end on one night service route, here - nada.

Locally in Kingston there's some 'mini holland' initiative going on, but it remains to be seen how that winds up after the Tories took control of the council from the Libdems..

Whilst I agree with 'why can't it be done everywhere' it's less about money and more about the ability to do so, plus it's not all sweetness and light once you get out of the centre...

Oh, and as a Brummie I spent most of my first 25yrs there, apart from 3 in Manchester, so I have a reasonable idea of Brum travel *used* to be like, at anyrate

ianrobo wrote:

In terms of this thread surely the same rule London wants can be applied across the country as a road regulation, why just London ?

Because people in London campaigned for it, and those in charge of implementing the rules locally changed the requirements.

ianrobo wrote:

teaboy wrote:

ianrobo wrote:

In terms of this thread surely the same rule London wants can be applied across the country as a road regulation, why just London ?

Because people in London campaigned for it, and those in charge of implementing the rules locally changed the requirements.

So London got the rules changed just for them when they could be done elsewhere. Why not change the campaign to one across the whole of the UK, it is devolution that causes this kind of nonsense.

typical I am OK now in London the rest of you sort yourselves out.

thatcher's children

I agree - they should be changed elsewhere, but because of how the country works(!?!) politically this was an issue that my local government has a say in.

Did you campaign to change the rules in London, or did you let us "sort ourselves out"? Post a link to your local campaign petitioning for the same thing and we'll sign it, share it and help.

ianrobo wrote:

Have you actually read my posts. I am not jealous of London, I am very pissed off that London gets more resources per head of population than the rest of us does.

The self-fulfilling problem is that London is one of THE cities of the world so infrastructure improvements need to be carried out as a matter of urgency compared to anywhere else.
You could pour billions of pounds into infrastructure in (eg) Dundee but the returns on that would be peanuts compared to putting that same amount of money to work in London. Which is then Catch-22 in that money for elsewhere is severely restricted and you end up with London soaking up all the jobs and money.

London transport is far from perfect but it is still miles ahead of anywhere else in the UK.
Regular and comparatively cheap trains, buses and Tube. Excellent bike hire scheme.

crazy-legs wrote:

[

The self-fulfilling problem is that London is one of THE cities of the world so infrastructure improvements need to be carried out as a matter of urgency compared to anywhere else.
London transport is far from perfect but it is still miles ahead of anywhere else in the UK.
Regular and comparatively cheap trains, buses and Tube. Excellent bike hire scheme.[/quote]

I think your wrong there mate. London is not one of the top cities in the world, we (as in the people of london) only think that. Take away the monarchy then the visitor numbers are pretty poor compared to other world cities - latest figures show that over 50% of visitors to London only come to see the monarchy.
As for transport the north east has the metro system which is viewed by other cities as the best in the country in relation to cost, availability and quality of travel.

ianrobo wrote:

Have you actually read my posts. I am not jealous of London, I am very pissed off that London gets more resources per head of population than the rest of us does.

If London had the same transport spending as us you would not have the cash to do these things. I want fairness for us all and not for one part of the country. you don;t get this in other countries do you ?

Of course you get it in other countries. The TdF finishes in Paris every year. They have the French Open tennis in Paris, and the national football and rugby stadiums there too. Large events tend to happen in capital cities - that's kind of the point of having capital cities!

There isn't a race to the bottom - just because local government in other parts of the country aren't implementing good(ish) cycling plans it doesn't mean London shouldn't either.

ianrobo wrote:

no I don;t blame London mate, I blame the allocation of resources to London.

what London is doing is great for cycling, fantastic, I love the plans on Lorries and the CSH's. What I want is for the whole country to have the same ...

Instead we see in Birmingham the council funds will be cut by a further 20% in November ...

We in London want that too, remember! Also, this isn't something that's being 'given' but the result of 2 years' campaigning and about 20 deaths at the hands of HGVs in that time. I don't even think it's funded by anyone, just a requirement that businesses have to suck up.

Like I said earlier, you have to start somewhere when it comes to infrastructure, and I'd really like Birmingham to start somewhere too. What's your local Cycling Campaign group like? Have a look at the Stop Killing Cyclists facebook page too.

ianrobo wrote:

But the point is that traffic rules have to apply nationwide, more cyclists cycle outside of London than in it. We all need the same protections it seems Londoners will have.

I never believe in the political theory of trickle down at all. Yes london has spent millions on infrastructure, seen nothing here of trickle down from it.

In the NL or France the same infrastructure can be found across the country not just where the capital is.

Money has gone out nationally but we don't have a national plan of action - we could argue the amount and number of areas that money has gone to for sure, but the point is it has and so is invariably up to the receiving authority to make sure it's spent in the manner it was intended or at least in a sensible fashion. If it doesn't - i'm not entirely sure we could blame 'London' (whatever that means) for all the failures.