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f**k the police

Ok that might sound a bit dramatic but I got pulled over tonight and had a blazing row - all because I didn't signal to pull across the road outside my house ...
The fact that I was coming downhill and had both hands on the brakes didn't wash ...

I explained my personal safety was more important than the need to give hand signals but it didn't matter

Its a pity they aren't as committed to bike crime ...

ps my daily commute is 9 miles each way so I'd like to think that after 2 years ( of no accidents) I'm a good judge of what works

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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44 comments

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brooksby | 8 years ago
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A separate, but related issue, is the question of indicating or not when approaching parked cars in your lane.

Motorists are apparently able to just smoothly (or not so smoothly) move out and around them, with or without indicating.

But the same motorists seem to expect cyclists to do a Danny MacAskill and go over the top of parked cars rather than moving out and around them: and if the cyclist doesn't indicate, as he isn't changing lane, simply moving to a slightly different position in his lane, well, that really gets the steam up 'em.

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AJ101 | 8 years ago
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This may not be what you want to hear but if he's taken the time to make his point then maybe he saw something that he thought could be dangerous rather than pedantic. If he;s not nicking you then he's probably not doing it for his own benefit. His blood pressure can stay lower but just carrying on and not getting involved!

But yeah you are indeed right if its just highway code rather than letter of the law then there's technically not a problem. id still take his advice though, even if you choose to ignore it later.

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Mungecrundle | 8 years ago
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Re OP.
I think you may have to accept that a Police Traffic Officer, a driver trained to very exacting standards, probably knows more about roadcraft than you do. Personally I'm always willing to consider advice even if it's a sarcastic comment from someone because it tells you something about their perception of what you thought was a perfectly reasonable manoeuvre.

Re video in previous comment.
Does seem to have been selectively cut, the rider may or may not have signaled before entering the roundabout but in the very first frame he is already on the roundabout, he has priority and his road position and attitude turning in on the bike show his obvious intent to go round. Very poor observation and anticipation skills from the driving instructor. But... It tells you something about the drivers perspective and if I was the cyclist involved I'd be thinking:

1. What a tw@t. Obviously
2. Why did the car driver not see my signal.
3. Did I anticipate that the car was entering the roundabout too quick? Did I have a plan 'B'
4. Could my road positioning have been even better?

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Kadinkski | 8 years ago
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levermonkey replied to Kadinkski | 8 years ago
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Kadinkski wrote:

Is this you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fWyOLC2n5Y

Video starts too late to show whether the cyclist signalled on the approach to the roundabout. I suspect that he did as the car driver stopped and was not giving way to any cars turning right or coming from his immediate right.

Video posted by pompous prat of a driving instructor who should know better and falls into the category of very selective editing.

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jova54 | 8 years ago
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Quote: "ps my daily commute is 9 miles each way so I'd like to think that after 2 years ( of no accidents) I'm a good judge of what works"

You are not the arbiter of whether you are a good judge of what works. It is purely your opinion. It's the people around you who make that judgement.

The fact you have not been involved in an accident i 2 years is also no measure of your ability. Plenty of drivers/cyclists can claim 20,30, 40 etc: years without an accident but who knows how many they've caused.

If you begin to think you can't learn from an experience then you're getting complacent and that leads to reducing your awareness and getting involved in a collision, not an 'accident', that will be your fault.

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P3t3 | 8 years ago
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sjb

In these circumstances its best to look up the "authority" section in your life handbook compiled during your time at the university of life.

In there you will find the first rule of authority:

Authority never backs down.

Its not about whether you were right or wrong. Since you didn't know already I assume you just havn't got to this module of your course yet. If you already covered it then its always good to put theory into practice...

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MKultra | 8 years ago
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If you are moving to fast to signal safely then apply the brakes and then signal.

You came to a stop on other side of the road anyway so it would have made no difference to your progress only to your safety

Getting into a rage because plod offered words of advice does not help matters.

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Lavaman | 8 years ago
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How offensive !!

Posting 'F**k the police' on an open sporting forum is either offensive, provocative, shows a complete lack of awareness or is a combination of all of the above.

How many police ride bikes ? How would you recognise an off duty policeman/woman while out and about enjoying themselves on said bike. Maybe one or two of them even use the internet and may even peruse this site.

There have been a couple of times when I have been 'spoken to' and at the time was pretty angry. Stupid really as each and every time there was a reason, speeding, jumping a red light, acting like a 'doos', etc.

As in most things in life every action results in a some reaction and I suggest that maybe in this instance there was a pretty valid reason for you being pulled over.

Rewind and think through what you did and said, look at the way you have reacted (posting this dross) and you may find the answer !

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surly_by_name | 8 years ago
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This is a stupid debate and I am a little bit ashamed of myself for perpetuating it. In my experience, when you get stopped by the police you should be unfailingly polite; without necessarily conceding that you have done anything wrong, you should agree with everything they say and leave them with the impression that you are eternally grateful that they stopped you and imparted their wisdom to you in a way that you will never, ever forget. If you have a forelock, you should tug it. This approach has two obvious benefits. First, it generally shortens the duration of the overall interaction (good for you, you get home sooner). Second, it makes the rozzers feel like they are making a difference (good for them, everyone needs a bit of affirmation now and again).

Arguing with them is a complete waste of your time and theirs. It doesn't matter to the two chaps (and/or chapettes) in the car that you may be correct. They have stopped you and they are now committed to a particular course of action, ie telling you that you are in the wrong. Does anyone honestly imagine that at this point they are going to convince plod that he has made a mistake? Can you imagine Plod X returning to the car and saying to Plod Y "My mistake, blokey over there on the bike really knows his stuff, explained to me just how wrong I was. Won't let that happen again, very embarrassing! I'm off home to revise on the Highway Code as soon as my shift is over". As opposed to "get the taser ready, this one is trouble".

And suggesting to them that they might better spend their time apprehending criminals (or people on mobile phones) is red rag to a bull stuff - why would you poke the bear? (Don't ever remind anyone that their job is shit, people don't like to have it pointed out that they have made a futile life choice.)

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TheHound | 8 years ago
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These kind of threads always reinforce my idea that as many idiot drivers there are, there's just as many idiot cyclists.

Also a lot of the time the police aren't pulling you over from a law point of view, but keeping you and others safe point of view.

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sjb2332 replied to TheHound | 8 years ago
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Why do you feel the need to call me an idiot cyclist ?

If you met me on a train and i told you my story would you be brave enough to call me an idiot to my face ?

probably not......

Why do you feel the need to hide behind your keyboard and take pot shots - why not offer something constructive instead ?

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MKultra replied to sjb2332 | 8 years ago
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I have never felt the need to threaten people on the internet just for using the word idiot, or in person.

Bye bye Mr Punchy.

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Joeinpoole replied to sjb2332 | 8 years ago
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sjb2332 wrote:

Why do you feel the need to call me an idiot cyclist ?

If you met me on a train and i told you my story would you be brave enough to call me an idiot to my face ?

probably not......

Why do you feel the need to hide behind your keyboard and take pot shots - why not offer something constructive instead ?

To use your analogy ... did you say "f**k the police" to their faces? Probably not ...

If anyone is hiding behind a keyboard, taking pot-shots and being unconstructive then it is surely your good self.

You've had plenty of good advice on this bizarre thread you started. You are just refusing to accept any of it.

It is *not* difficult to signal right whilst remaining in control of your bike, even when braking going downhill. You simply slow to a speed you can handle one-handed before doing so. You probably need to slow down before making the turn anyway ... so just slow down a bit earlier. Easy isn't it?

You need to stop being such a self-righteous arse on a bike and instead ride with courtesy to other road-users. You strike me as exactly the sort of person who gives cyclists a bad name and adds to the armoury of motorists who hate us. If you treat other road-users with respect it is far more likely that they will treat you with respect.

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TheHound replied to sjb2332 | 8 years ago
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sjb2332 wrote:

Why do you feel the need to call me an idiot cyclist ?

If you met me on a train and i told you my story would you be brave enough to call me an idiot to my face ?

probably not......

Why do you feel the need to hide behind your keyboard and take pot shots - why not offer something constructive instead ?

I would have absolutely no problem calling you an idiot if you display the behaviour you have on here.

However my idiot comment wasn't specifically directed you. But you, as well as the other people trying to justify not signalling a manoeuvre. It's not a courtesy thing, it's a safety thing for all involved.

If you're going downhill and need to move across the road, scrub your speed in plenty of time to enable you to signal and continue braking after if necessary. It's really just common sense.

I always signal well in advance of any manoeuvre, so people around me have plenty of time to adjust their own actions accordingly, and allowing me to keep both hands on the bars as I do whatever I need to do.

The fact I have to explain this scares the crap out of me, knowing I have to share the roads with certain people (motorists and cyclists included).

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climber replied to TheHound | 8 years ago
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TheHound][quote=sjb2332 wrote:

If you're going downhill and need to move across the road, scrub your speed in plenty of time to enable you to signal and continue braking after if necessary. It's really just common sense.

I always signal well in advance of any manoeuvre, so people around me have plenty of time to adjust their own actions accordingly, and allowing me to keep both hands on the bars as I do whatever I need to do.

The fact I have to explain this scares the crap out of me, knowing I have to share the roads with certain people (motorists and cyclists included).

Could'nt agree more. Think ahead and act accordingly, not only for your own safety but that of others on the road. Surely it should be easy especially as it's on a road/junction you know well. Maybe the police were wrong to stop you, but it was made worse by arguing.
I've found if I behave sensibly, courteously and considerately then I avoid most problems. Please note the "most".

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climber replied to climber | 8 years ago
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Apologies for me screwing up the quotes in my post.
I meant to reply the below to what TheHound posted about scrubbing speed etc.

"Could'nt agree more. Think ahead and act accordingly, not only for your own safety but that of others on the road. Surely it should be easy especially as it's on a road/junction you know well. Maybe the police were wrong to stop you, but it was made worse by arguing.
I've found if I behave sensibly, courteously and considerately then I avoid most problems. Please note the "most"."

Sorry to all concerned.

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stenmeister | 8 years ago
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Once I was indicating right for a mini roundabout, hit a pothole because I was keeping an eye on the traffic and crashed on the verge because I didn't have full control. My own personal lesson here was to slow down and indicate when safe to do so, not speed into the junction in the hope that I could slingshot round it.

On another note, I had a police man apologised to me on sunday. It was a Y junction and I was going right. He came behind me but then realised he wanted to go left and as he changed his mind, he wound the window down and said 'sorry mate'.

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levermonkey | 8 years ago
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Tin hat at the ready.

For cyclists in the UK a left turn signal is a courtesy signal and a right turn signal is a safety signal. You must maintain control of your vehicle at all times.

If it is not practicable for safety or cycle control reasons then the right turn (safety) signal can be omitted. For instance when turning right at a mini-roundabout. You would signal right as you approached but cease to signal as you turn.

In the SJB2332's example (bearing in mind I don't know where the incident occurred) the rider has two options.
1) Signal right before he moves to the centre of the road and then give no signal (road position shows he intends to turn right) or a brief signal before applying brakes. or
2) Stop on the left and then cross the road at right angles after proper observations (like a pedestrian).

Additional. When dealing with the police - remain calm and reasonable. Chances are he hasn't checked in his handbook to see if an offence has been committed. You can buy a copy of the Blackstones Police Operational Handbook 2015. (It's quite good fun to leave it in an office and observe discretely which section people turn to.)

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sjb2332 replied to levermonkey | 8 years ago
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thanks for your reply, most helpful !

I'm going to stick with your 'option 1' - i've tried this approach but i still get 'beeped' for not singalling when i come to a stop . Having said that it does seems the best suggestion......

ps good shout about the ...handbook, i may look into this

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Shep73 | 8 years ago
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It's worth remembering that the Police riders handbook stipulates you don't need to indicate, especially if it will confuse other road users. That's using a motor vehicle so they cannot penalise a cyclist for not doing so.

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shay cycles | 8 years ago
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The police have no business stopping a cyclist for not signalling. Good or bad manners or practice is irrelevant, the cyclist is not required to signal and therefore cannot be stopped simply for not signalling. Would I argue if I was stopped for not signalling - the paraphrase Ed Milliband - Hell yes!

If the police want to stop the cyclist for something else then they should give that as the reason for stopping him.

In terms of advice or support as requested by the OP:

A) you were not obliged to signal and therefore should not have been stopped
B) when making a manoeuvre without signalling you can make your intent clear to oth road users by other methods including; road positioning (nice and early), shoulder checks, eye contact etc.

I don't understand why people are giving the OP a hard time here.

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atgni | 8 years ago
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Highway code rule 67 - you should...Give a clear signal to show other road users what you indeed to do...

Not a MUST. You seem to describe you house as on a blind corner so some indication or slowing down more does sound a good idea or possible crossing a bit earlier if that'd work.

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JonD replied to atgni | 8 years ago
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atgni wrote:

Highway code rule 67 - you should...Give a clear signal to show other road users what you indeed to do...

Not a MUST. You seem to describe you house as on a blind corner so some indication or slowing down more does sound a good idea or possible crossing a bit earlier if that'd work.

As an aside, it's interesting how many people - including some of the more bike friendly Police - translate the 'not more than two abreast' to be 'never more than..', despite the fact that has a 'should' attached, not a 'must', never quite worked out the grammar blindness m'self...

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KiwiMike | 8 years ago
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Jesus guys, back the truck up a little.Yeah, way too many keyboard warriors. Lighten up and give the guy a break. You weren't there. I often don't indicate, particularly to turn left, because staying in control is more important and other road users have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to a: not run into the back of me and b: not turn across my path, ***regardless*** of what I'm doing with my arms at the time.

There are many of examples of Police, PCSO's and parking wardens not understanding the law, instead rather doling out what they *think* is the law. No, I wouldn't accept a telling-off from a public employee either, if I knew they were in the wrong and were being a jerk about it. The onus is on them to know the law and to apply it to the highest of standards.

And they should have been out catching people on their mobiles anyway.

And another thing: this BS about it being 'courtesy' to indicate don't wash. What you actually mean is 'as a driver, I demand that second or so of advance notice of your intention, so I can drive my car forward to occupy the space you will have just departed, a few seconds sooner, because I'm more important than you'. Cars have indicators so others are *warned* of their intent, because they can kill you.

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700c | 8 years ago
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Sounds like you were going too fast if you weren't safely able to indicate before cutting across the road.

HTH.

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gazza_d | 8 years ago
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If plod did pull you over for a word abut not indicating, then they must be very diligent & spend all day stopping motorists that don't bother to signal

There is two sides, and I note that your position on the road wasn't mentioned. Did you pull across & possibly cut them up (from their viewpoint)?

If you were clearly in front, with plenty of room and nothing close then I'd say they were being picky

Arguing the toss with plod, especially ones that seem to be picky is never a good idea

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Simon E | 8 years ago
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The fact that it turned into a blazing row suggests you didn't conduct yourself very well.

2 years riding experience isn't the point. Plenty of people that drive like twunts have been practising far longer than that. Even if you feel you're 100% in the right it's always worth asking yourself what you could do better.

"Keyboard warriors"... and whose provocative behaviour & subject line were we talking about?

 24

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Argos74 | 8 years ago
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Saw the title, couldn't resist.

//i.imgur.com/6g0mgrQ.jpg)

[source.]

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guyonabike | 8 years ago
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Stick your foot out to signal?  35

Serious alternative... I find signalling earlier helps on downhill manoeuvres.
When you have your speed under control, shoulder check and signal to whatever is behind. Once your intentions have been noticed, stop signalling and go back to full braking and make the turn.
You may pick up some speed while signalling and only using one brake, but a little forward planning and practice will help to determine how much earlier the whole process should start so you can be back under control before turning.

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