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Descending breaking the fear

So as the title suggests how did you get over it?

This weekend i did a Hilly Sportive i did it last year and for this year i specifically trained for it. I took 20 minutes out of my time with a course that was 4 miles longer. I should be happy but i'm not i've figured out how to climb without blowing up but descending at speed scares the life out of me. The feeling that the bike is completely out of my control moving all over the place and generally on the edge of falling off i can't beat. I'm never going to be the best but being in control without fear is surely an achievable next target!

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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ianrobo | 9 years ago
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so I come down a 2KM average of 10% plus last week and was in the bottom 10 of segments on Strava. Basically had the bike on brakes all the way down as 'scared' I may go over the front of the bars, stupid I know ...

got to better than that as coming down the alps with brakes full on for 10-20K is not exactly efficient.

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ianrobo | 9 years ago
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I was told my an experienced descender who has done the Alps etc not to break int he corner, if you have to you are too late.

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Martyn_K | 9 years ago
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Like most aspects of life and cycling, different people are good at different things. Some people are naturally good at climbing, some at driving it out on the flat and others descending.

A good deal of this is subconscious and could be deemed as natural talent. Each individual will be able to train to a certain degree and improve their natural ability but there will always be a threshold where no further improvement can be made. It is also worth noting that some people will learn quicker and easier.

I'm not saying that the opening poster should think they have reached their limit. But i think they should give themselves some slack. Do not put pressure on yourself to be quick. Reducing that pressure and relaxing will likely result in a positive effect.

We have a guy in our club who is not the greatest climber and will always be a few minutes behind when topping out a long climb. But my word he can descend. When asked how he drops so quickly he can't explain it, it just happens. He has never raced, never been in to MTB and does not ride a motorcycle. You could argue it is natural ability.

Stay upright, stay safe, enjoy the view.

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rjfrussell replied to Martyn_K | 9 years ago
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Martyn_K wrote:

But i think they should give themselves some slack. Do not put pressure on yourself to be quick. Reducing that pressure and relaxing will likely result in a
positive effect.

The thing is, if you are a cojones-less descender (as I am), it is not a question of putting pressure on yourself to be quick. It is a raw and naked fear when you think about letting go of the brakes.

Though, I have to say, it really does show the value of boards such as this. Having mulled over a lot of the comments on this thread I deliberately chose a route today with wide-ish, straightish, longish descents... and hit a new top speed.

Thanks guys!

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Colin Peyresourde | 9 years ago
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I was thinking about the counter steering till it made my head hurt. It so intuitive that if you need to teach it there's probably little hope. Not sure it's a winner on descents. It might help in a hair pin, but if you don't know the road you may find that out too late.

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Must be Mad | 9 years ago
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There is no harm in just going down at the speed you are comfortable.
When doing a sportive, going 5mph slower down a hill will have a minimal impact to your overall time, but going 1mph faster up it will have a much bigger effect.

Plus, there is more kudos for being 'king of the climb' than 'king of the drop'

But some random thoughts:

1) If your bike was becoming unstable at speed - was this because of a cross wind or rough surface? If not, then there could be a mechanical problem with the bike.

2) If you don't know the decent, then you should always proceed with caution

3) riding in a group will let you see how others take the decent. Back off their wheel 20m or so, and follow them down. If they get into difficulty, you will have that extra warning time.

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crikey | 9 years ago
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I don't know whether it's the way I'm explaining it, but the people who are good on bikes are good because of practice rather than a theoretical understanding of the physics involved. Countersteering is one of those esoteric things that some people think is secret knowledge, both in the motorcycle and cycling world, but it's just not that important.

Proof? Children ride bicycles and go on to become expert bike handlers without ever being taught about countersteering. It's interesting in a deeper explanation of what's happening kind of way, but it's far less important than practicing on your bike to make it do what you want.

I was 38 when I first learned about it, reading A Twist of the Wrist, yet I'd done all my riding and racing by then...

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tomisitt | 9 years ago
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There's a very good piece in the latest Cycling Active on cornering skills...thoroughly recommended  3

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crikey | 9 years ago
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My point is that you don't need to understand it to corner well, and, as above anyone who rides a bike is able to countersteer. It's simply a description of part of the process.
It's a bit like riding a bike fast; there are numerous processes involved but knowing about oxygen uptake and delivery or the production of lactate doesn't help you do it any faster. Pressing on harder does.

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JonD replied to crikey | 9 years ago
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crikey wrote:

My point is that you don't need to understand it to corner well, and, as above anyone who rides a bike is able to countersteer.

If they can corner well already, good luck to 'em - they're able to do something which *results* in countersteering. But NOT everyone is able to corner well.

As I've already said, if they find themselves running wide and/or having trouble with mid-corner corrections, without knowing HOW to fix it they're unlikely to.

Some years ago the m/c test was changed to include a swerve test - the point being that some riders will try to 'steer' around an obstacle as if at low speed which results in turning the wrong way.
(One recumbent I ride has bars under the seat - like an upright so pretty intuitive but it corners better if you actively countersteer. The other has a tiller - swinging it the 'wrong' way is a headf*ck at first.)

This stuff has been taught by the Californian Superbike School for years as a matter of dissecting each part of riding -one chapter in 'Twist Of The Wrist - in part its also about overcoming 'survival reactions' - eg turning the wrong way to avoid an object or braking mid-corner.

Get it wrong on a bicycle and it's probably gravel rash and bruises. Getting it wrong on a motorcycle - particularly on road rather than track - and it's a whole lot nastier.

Cornering principles are the same for both - set your corner speed, choose your line, turn in, ride out, looking where you want to go (ie no target fixation).

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pants | 9 years ago
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The best way to learn is to follow a good descender ahead of you, just follow their line, it's also much easier to spot hazards like oncoming cars in narrow lanes or road debris by looking at the rider ahead.

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crazy-legs | 9 years ago
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The absolute #1 is to have confidence in the bike.
If the brakes are rubbish or it doesn't fit properly or the tyres have a tendency to slide, it doesn't matter how good you are, you'll never be able to give it 100%.

So ensure that the rims are clean, the brakes are as good as you (or a shop!) can get them, all the nuts and bolts are torqued correctly, the tyres are good quality, free from cuts etc and inflated to the correct pressure for your weight, the road conditions etc.

Then find a gentle descent that's as traffic free as possible and practice flowing down it. Not riding it. Flowing. Don't go for all out speed, go for smoothness, as little braking as possible, head up, look through the corners rather than at them. Once you can do that, the speed will come as a by-product of being smooth. Try to go fast and you'll end up over-braking which isn't smooth. Outside leg down, weight the bike with the body, don't try and steer it too much, you steer by leaning, looking where you want to go and using the hips and a bit of weight on the inside of the bar.

Chris Boardman did a very funny video (which I can't find...) on descending but in the absence of the video, try his tips here: http://www.tamiasoutside.com/2012/07/17/descending-2/

The problem in the UK is that a lot of descents tend to be on rubbish roads, short / steep / twisty where you can't let the bike go or on busy A-road where you've got loads of traffic.

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Cyclist replied to crazy-legs | 9 years ago
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crazy-legs wrote:

The absolute #1 is to have confidence in the bike.

^^^^^^^ absoloutly this

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fustuarium | 9 years ago
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Good thread, with good advice and links. Take comfort that there's always someone worse than you; in this case it's me! Last year I had brake failure at 30pmh on 16% decent that lead to a monumental off. I've only just started going back on the road and am half my old descending speed. Over 15mph and my bottle goes (despite doing 26mph on the flat!). On todays ride I took a wrong turn and ended up on a 20% decent I meant to come up. Stopped in a sweat and had to give myself a bollocking just to carry on down, even at walking pace, thinking 'What if the brakes fail'. You can't be that bad!

I've been trying to plan how to sort it out and thankfully it fits much of what's said here: hill repeats to climb better and learn to descend comfortably, concentrate on being relaxed, be happy that I'm not trying to break any times\speed on descents, dust off hybrid\mountain bike and go off road to get the feel back. Trying to put it all together reminds me of a Lou Holtz quote "Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it".

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crikey | 9 years ago
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Quote:

Don't think its been explicitly mentioned yet - on a bike/motorcycle at speed you countersteer to turn

I know that in discussions about bicycle handling, countersteering usually crops up at some point. It's not really that important because it's the way two wheeled things work; if you ride a bike, you can already countersteer.

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JonD replied to crikey | 9 years ago
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crikey wrote:
Quote:

Don't think its been explicitly mentioned yet - on a bike/motorcycle at speed you countersteer to turn

I know that in discussions about bicycle handling, countersteering usually crops up at some point. It's not really that important because it's the way two wheeled things work; if you ride a bike, you can already countersteer.

Not so. A lot of riders - cycle or motorcycle- *kinda* get it but really aren't aware of what's involved, plus it seems counter-intuitive - a common m/c tip was/is to 'weight the inside peg' which has a similar effect but is far less efficient than bar input. So if they find themselves running wide they dont understand how to fix it - I had the same problem myself on one particular traffic roundabout despite riding road and mtb for years

The OP asked for suggestions to improve their descending/cornering - its possible that may be part of the solution. Just because you think you have it sorted doesn't mean everyone does.

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JonD | 9 years ago
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Don't think its been explicitly mentioned yet - on a bike/motorcycle at speed you countersteer to turn (in).
It's pretty subtle on a bike, but way more noticeable on a motorcycle.
You push on the bar to the side you want to turn (or pull on the other) - which often feels like pushing the bike down into the corner.

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JonD | 9 years ago
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Don't think its been explicitly mentioned yet - on a bike/motorcycle at speed you countersteer to turn (in).
It's pretty subtle on a bike, but way more noticeable on a motorcycle.
You push on the bar to the side you want to turn (or pull on the other) - which often feels like pushing the bike down into the corner.

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JonD | 9 years ago
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Don't think its been explicitly mentioned yet - on a bike/motorcycle at speed you countersteer to turn (in).
It's pretty subtle on a bike, but way more noticeable on a motorcycle.
You push on the bar to the side you want to turn (or pull on the other) - which often feels like pushing the bike down into the corner.

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Quince | 9 years ago
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Along with all the other excellent advice, it may be worth trying to pinpoint exactly what it is about a particular descent that scares you.

For straight, steep drops, the only thing you really need to worry about is the road surface. So long as you can keep the bike in the straight line, there's only one place gravity's going to send you, so you can 'model' the decent in your head pretty easily. Knowing that, you can ride with the aim of avoiding imperfections; small movements, but not really editing your course. The speed may 'feel' scary, but the knowledge that it's not going to chuck you anywhere unexpected should make it easier to come to terms with. It's just you, but faster. Speed is not dangerous on its own.

For swoopy descents, then just be cautious as hell, or as cautious as you want, until you can't be bothered with that level of caution anymore. Try breaking the descent down into shorter, straighter sections so the drop becomes more like a series of the straight ones mentioned earlier. In these circumstances, speed CAN throw you weird places, so try and almost 'reset' before every new section by slowing down as much as you want, perhaps almost coming to a standstill (obviously try and find a very quiet and unpressured environment for this).

Like many people have said, a fluid descent requires a fluid body, and that can't happen if you're physically and mentally rigid. Therefore, working on breaking descents down into something comfortable, understandable, and not scary pieces comes before anything else.

Compared to most cycling, where you're wrestling the bike up hills or desperately trying to hold someone's wheel, descending requires you to 'do' almost nothing. It's not your strength generating the force driving you forwards, but gravity (+ your combined mass). Descending about understanding those forces, knowing what they can and can't do, and then 'feeling' when you can let them take you, and when to dial them back.

If you can, find some of both types of descent (somewhere very quiet), and practice letting gravity 'take control' of you on the former, and letting yourself 'take control' of gravity on the latter (i.e. brake a lot). Weight distribution, body tension, mental focus etc. should hopefully start to feel like a natural part of something bigger. There are only really 'gravity, contours, body and bike' at work, and the first two are already set in stone.

Oh, and obviously, the bike has to be suitable. A heavily laden tourer or not going to handle very responsively compared to a carbon racer.

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rjfrussell replied to Quince | 9 years ago
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Quince wrote:

Speed is not dangerous on its own.

This, and indeed your full post, is of course factually accurate. And on an intellectual level, very difficult.

The big problem that I have (and I suspect others posting to this thread have) is that no matter how much I tell my head to tell my body that speed on its own is not dangerous, it scares the shit out of me on a bike.

I gave up skiing for the same reason. But you can't ski up hill. At least cycling has some point left to it!

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Quince replied to rjfrussell | 9 years ago
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rjfrussell wrote:
Quince wrote:

Speed is not dangerous on its own.

This, and indeed your full post, is of course factually accurate. And on an intellectual level, very difficult.

The big problem that I have (and I suspect others posting to this thread have) is that no matter how much I tell my head to tell my body that speed on its own is not dangerous, it scares the shit out of me on a bike.

I gave up skiing for the same reason. But you can't ski up hill. At least cycling has some point left to it!

I was trying to make the point (which Colin has helped me out with) that to be a competent and confident descender, you need to be both used to the feeling of 'going fast', and relatively skilled at turning corners.

The former is not really skill-based, more a matter of acclimatisation, and I was suggesting finding some descents with very little turning just to practice 'getting used' to being fast, safe in the knowledge that you don't really have to do anything from bottom to top.

My second point was more about developing 'skills', and involved a lot of slowing down and practicing actually moving body and bike.

It's precisely BECAUSE 'speed on its own scares the shit out of' pretty much ANYONE on a bike, that I was suggesting practicing 'speed' in isolation, in a safe and (literally) straightforward environment, where you don't have to worry about turning or crashing, so your mind can gradually stop screaming... Hopefully. That was the idea, anyway.

I'm sorry if my post came across as a bit wooden, blunt, and/or full of unhelpful truisms.

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Colin Peyresourde replied to Quince | 9 years ago
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Quince wrote:

Speed is not dangerous on its own.
…...

This is a mantra to live by. But to give it justice, it should be expressed in its fullest, which is that 'speed in itself does not dangerous, it is the stopping'.

The first part is the most important part. As long as the road is straight and you can see your exit do not put a hand on the brake. Once you see the bend you modulate your speed you can see the where you need to slow yourself, the closer you get, you should start to see your exit and as soon as you do, let the brakes off again.

Give yourself simple rules for your approach and follow these until they become second nature. If you give in to fear you have all ready failed…..I think Yoda said that.

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southseabythesea | 9 years ago
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I used to descend at speed, when conditions were safe. After a painful brush with the tarmac at under 20mph, getting stones picked out of knees is painful, I didn't want to find out what it would be like at 40mph+. Now I take descent easy and put effort into ascents instead.

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OldRidgeback replied to southseabythesea | 9 years ago
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southseabythesea wrote:

I used to descend at speed, when conditions were safe. After a painful brush with the tarmac at under 20mph, getting stones picked out of knees is painful, I didn't want to find out what it would be like at 40mph+. Now I take descent easy and put effort into ascents instead.

Stones picked up in the skin at 40mph sometimes don't come out. There's a bit of grit above my right knee that's been there since I was a teenager. It's a relic of a motorbike crash rather than one on a bicycle, but the effect was the same.

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bashthebox | 9 years ago
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I'm a terrible descender, so have had to try very hard to get better. Like others have said - if you don't feel too confident, don't force yourself to go fast. Ride to the conditions... if it's wert, you're right to go slow. If you don't know the road, every corner's a risk.

That said! There's things you can do to help.
1. Relax, relax, relax. Obviously your fear reflex will make you grip on for dear life, but that makes you and your bike a twitchy, unstable mess. I find breathing deeply and consciously telling yourself to relax can help.
2. Focus on the braking, the line you want to take, and your body position. Honestly, as daft as it sounds, I've talked myself down a mountain descent like so:"Brake, let go of brakes, foot down, lean, apex apex, go wide out, relaxxxxx..... brake, stop braking, foot down, apex" etc.
3. Climb mountains, descend them. You come back from a trip to high mountains descending maybe 20-30% faster than you do on short UK roads.

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Shred | 9 years ago
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The bike needs to move around on the road, especially if the surface is not perfect.
A relaxed grip on the bars and relaxed arms and shoulders are essential. Use your body to point you in the right direction and let the bike follow you there. You cannot try to steer the bike all the time.

If you can, get out on a mountain bike. This will help teach you to allow the bike to move around under you and relax your grip.

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pablo | 9 years ago
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Thanks for the comments. I was looking last night for some roads to do some repeats on I think I knew what people were going to say but always worth getting some comments to show your not alone. Although I agree with the comment about bike setup I suffer on both my bikes from the same fear. The bike I used was my sportive bike which I just rebuilt so I need to check it over for anything slightly loose and check the saddle height etc. On this specific event I might be able to blame the bike but in general I don't like the feeling of the bike moving around so much.
I've got week booked in the canaries cycling so I need to work on this before I go or I might run out of brake pads on some of the descents!

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mrmo replied to pablo | 9 years ago
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pablo wrote:

I've got week booked in the canaries cycling so I need to work on this before I go or I might run out of brake pads on some of the descents!

Depending on the island, you may actually find things get better. UK descents tend to be short and steep, I have found that longer alpine and canarian descents I have ridden have given time to think and learn, if you can find some one to follow you can actually follow rather than find the descent has ended before it started.

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Colin Peyresourde | 9 years ago
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Agree with pretty much all of the above. Practise till you don't think about it. The more relaxed you are the better you will descend. Nothing is worth betting it all though - the more you do it, the more you know the limits, less of a gamble the speed is.

I don't mind saying that I've been overtaken on downhills in the Pyrenees, but I'll not forget seeing one of my fellow riders take a gamble overtaking a lorry and facing on-coming traffic. There was just about enough room, but if he was wrong it didn't bear thinking about. So don't feel the pressure to emulate others. It may not end well for them, or for you.

….that said sometimes using better descenders as a guide (or even crap ones) can help. By knowing when they are breaking or opening up you can learn where bends open out, so you can come off the breaks sooner.

Sometimes one thing goes wrong and it gives you a 'glass jaw'. I know I went down a hill at 40mph+ and went into a 'death wobble'. I was frightened to break in case the bike threw me, and I was frightened not to break because the bike might throw me. In the end I was just holding on for grime death and looking for soft spot to land. Somehow I modulated my speed and got away with it, but after that it affected my willingness to really just let it hang out diminished and I am not sure my descending has ever fully recovered, though I wouldn't describe myself as a slouch.

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