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Crashing on ice - is faster better?

I've come off twice in the last three weeks on ice. The first time I was doing between 15 and 17 mph, hit some ice, went down hard and slid along the road. Whilst it wasn't great experience, I thought at the time and after "Phew, got away with that, could have been a lot worse." My right shoulder took most of the fall, and I also managed to bang my helmet.

Second time I was going a lot slower, probably around 5 mph. I was about to turn into a gated entrance to a country house, wheel went out from under me, and I landed heavily on both wrists; mainly my left (possible broken scaphoid bone) but also my right wrist, right knee and left shoulder. Again I banged my head - perhaps the main benefit of wearing a helmet is you don't tense up and try too hard to stop your head hitting the deck in cases like this?

Anyway, logic normally says if you are going to have a crash in any vehicle, the slower you are travelling the better. Perhaps if you're on a bike, if you are travelling along at a reasonable speed, you don't impact the ground dead square, more obliquely, and so don't suffer as bad injury wise?

Get my induction at the gym tonight, sitting on static bikes for a few weeks  2

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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23 comments

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Ivorcader | 9 years ago
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After breaking my collar bone last year (5 mph and black ice) I equipped an ancient Dawes tourer with schwalbe spiked tyres. I have commuted 13 miles each way everyday over the past couple of weeks and the tyres have been brilliant, never a hint of losing grip. They are very hard work though adding about 15 very tiring minutes to my journey, on the plus side my strength and stamina have improved considerably.

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giff77 | 9 years ago
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From personal experience I would say fast. With the handful of crashes I've had over the years three have involved ice. Two at speed the other not. First high speed one the front wheel caught some black ice on a shallow corner. Bike went from under me and I carried on for another twenty feet or so on my hip. Goodbye tights and miraculously no road rash. Second one again at speed a PED stepped out in front of me, I swerved, hit ice bike went one way and I was catapulted another along on my chest no injuries or damaged kit. The third one I was negotiating an icy stretch of road and lost the back wheel and toppled. Staved my wrist and twisted my shoulder on that one as I decided to concentrate too hard on how to fall!

Part of the trick is to relax and let go of the bike as you go down which is easier said than done. When playing rugby our coach spent an inordinate amount of time teaching us how to fall until it became second nature which probably helped me with my tussles with the ice.

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ashfanman | 9 years ago
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I came off on a training ride about four weeks ago after hitting some black ice on a corner. I've had countless crashes on my MTB over the years, but this was my first proper spill on road and I'm not much looking forward to the second.

I had slowed right down as it looked a bit slippy and was probably only doing 10 mph, but landed heavily on my elbow, hip and knee and slid to the curb. Thankfully there weren't any cars behind me at the time and I managed to avoid any broken bones, but the whole thing has shaken my confidence a bit and definitely made me think twice about riding on icy days. I used to ride year round pretty much no matter what the weather, but I may now decide to stick to the turbo if it's frosty outside.

And I didn't escape entirely - my Gabba was fine (the first thing I checked after I got up) and my bib tights were scuffed but not torn, which is more than I can say for the skin underneath, but I trashed my winter gloves and arm warmers. Worst of all, my knee must have slammed into my bidon on the way down, ripping the bottle cage bolt out of the (alloy) frame and leaving a nice crack. Canyon suggested replacing the frame (they offered a decent crash replacement price), but I took it into my LBS (Sigma in Kingston) and they just hit it with a hammer until the bolt popped back into place. Hasn't repaired the crack, of course, but seems secure enough. Didn't even charge me for the work - just for a new cage. Excellent service as always.

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matthewn5 | 9 years ago
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Skiers know that the dangerous accidents are those at slow speed. Fast crashes rarely cause problems. Still, snow is softer than road.

I came off on ice on a beautiful sunny morning, bit of off-camber road, about 15mph and I was on the deck before I could blink. Shoulder and hip took the brunt, no injury except a shifter had rotated on the bars, a quick fix. I slid on the ice, and I think that saved my bibs and my jacket. Had it been tarmac I think I would have looked a bit Hoogerland.

I was just standing up and inspecting the bike when a 4x4 came round a bend. Glad I wasn't on the deck at that point.

I avoid cold sunny mornings now if there's a chance of ice...

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bdsl | 9 years ago
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From a simple physics perspective I can't see why falling off at high speed would be any better than falling off a slow moving or stationary bike, although of course there could be some biomechanical effect I haven't thought of.

Falling off at speed your fall would be spread over a longer distance, but I don't think it would take a longer time for you to stop falling downards. The ice would still push you upwards just as hard when you hit it. When you analyze forces you can separate out the vertical forces from the horizontal forces and consider the two separately.

Of course you might continue moving forwards after you stop moving downwards, but I don't see why that would help.

As jonathanfmcgarry says I think most of the differences are probably down to luck.

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Jimmy Ray Will replied to bdsl | 9 years ago
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bdsl wrote:

From a simple physics perspective I can't see why falling off at high speed would be any better than falling off a slow moving or stationary bike, although of course there could be some biomechanical effect I haven't thought of.

Falling off at speed your fall would be spread over a longer distance, but I don't think it would take a longer time for you to stop falling downards. The ice would still push you upwards just as hard when you hit it. When you analyze forces you can separate out the vertical forces from the horizontal forces and consider the two separately.

Of course you might continue moving forwards after you stop moving downwards, but I don't see why that would help.

As jonathanfmcgarry says I think most of the differences are probably down to luck.

I think this is to do with the 'action/reaction' rule... you as a falling cyclist will have a certain amount of kinetic energy. Now if that energy is focused vertically, when you hit the ground there is no where for that energy to go other than be absorbed by you and the ground.

Now, tarmac road doesn't give much, so it's going to be you.

The problem we have is that we don't really bounce, so in a pure vertical fall, we have a tendency to break.

Whilst we can't bounce, we do skid or roll fairly well, so in a higher speed crash, some of the vertical kinetic energy can be transferred into horizontal energy, which then gets dissipated as friction and noise and movement of joints, limbs etc. i.e the energy is spread over greater percentage of the body and over a longer period.

A low speed crash is damaging because there is no where for the stored energy to go other than be absorbed by muscles and more importantly bone.

Think of a judo fall, and how they spread load over a wider part of the body.

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bdsl replied to Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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I think this is to do with the 'action/reaction' rule... you as a falling cyclist will have a certain amount of kinetic energy.

You will have a certain amount of kinetic energy due to your speed falling straight down, if you fall from stationary. It is focused vertically.

Now suppose you fall while riding at speed instead. You will have the same kinetic energy due to falling vertically, but in addition you will have the energy of your forward motion. The falling energy is the same.

The friction from the road dissipates your forward motion energy, but it doesn't affect your downard energy. That's still getting absorbed by your body changing position as the ground pushes you up.

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unistriker | 9 years ago
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A long while ago Cycling Secrets did a video on crashing. Quite entertaining and gives instructions on how to avoid the crash in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHGfzeH6Qg4

I do agree with other comments,learning to fall is beneficial to Crashing technique.

I developed this as a skill during my football years, a lot of games with simulation diving developed my ability to fall without getting too hurt. I agree diving is unsportsmanlike but in a fun five a side game its just for laughs.

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KirinChris | 9 years ago
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Faster definitely.

I say this as someone sitting at home recovering from a fractured hip, having come off on ice just before New Year.

It's not easy to fracture your hip. The femur is the strongest bone on your body so to break it requires a LOT of force.

I've come off plenty of times before whole racing and training. This was a nice easy spin and we were watching for ice so going slow at the time. I think that was what made the difference.

For the record, I wasn't wearing a helmet and I didn't hit my head.

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Daveyraveygravey | 9 years ago
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Sorry me and Halfwheeler, plus the 18 mph guy, that is a scientific trend. If you're going to give up being up, make sure you're on it!:-D

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HalfWheeler | 9 years ago
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It's pot luck.

Two crashes come to mind this last 6 months.

First one was in summer, chainganging, 25mph, someone clipped my backwheel and down they went. Apart from a bruise on his backside he was ok.

Second one was in autumn. Sunday run. Slowmo crash while approaching a roundabout. It was barely faster than walking speed, 5mph. The guy broke his femur, really nasty.

You just never know.

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brummie_biker | 9 years ago
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The only good crash is one you don't know about until you hit the deck. The brain does a great job of subconsciously protecting you - it's when you think about it you do stupid things that cause you damage!

I've fallen off at lights and wrecked shoulder ligaments, fell off at speed on ice and lost a postage stamp sized piece of hip skin!

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Cyclist replied to brummie_biker | 9 years ago
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brummie_biker wrote:

The only good crash is one you don't know about until you hit the deck. The brain does a great job of subconsciously protecting you - it's when you think about it you do stupid things that cause you damage!

I've fallen off at lights and wrecked shoulder ligaments, fell off at speed on ice and lost a postage stamp sized piece of hip skin!

The only good crash....! Is the one your not involved in.

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Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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As mentioned already... the key is the length of time it takes to dissipate the kinetic energy involved.

A slow crash has the ability to cause a lot of damage as there is less horizontal forces to extend the time spent dissipating energy.

However, the problem with higher speed crashes is the increased risk of hitting something other than the road.

Either way, best avoided.

I'd also say that falling off is a skill, but not one that is easily developed. Personally I have been really lucky and have never done any severe damage, which I put down primarily to luck, but I also believe that trampolining as a teenager (didn't like football, plus it was a great way to hang out with girls in their gym kit) has given me a basic awareness when tumbling through the air.

MTB riding has also helped greatly, as I've spent a lot of time in 'near crash' scenarios off-road. This has transferred well to the road, where I would say I fight harder to stay upright than a lot of my peers.

Anyway, enough self congratulation... sorry.

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Simmo72 | 9 years ago
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In the summer I hit the ground travelling at 20mph but because of the way it happened -oily bloody pot hole- i basically piledrived straight into the ground, no sliding. Resulting in lots of broken ribs and a separated ac shoulder joint. It would have been a lot less damaging had I slid. the only plus was my bike was fine (it landed on me) and my best bib shorts remained perfectly intact even if underneath was like something out of a saw film.

Only 1 day off work, though lots of gurning & pissing blood & driving a car was interesting.

Just about over it now, shoulders take a long time to heal. I shall be watching out for potholes more closely now. a couple of seconds lapse in focus is all it took

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jaymack | 9 years ago
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I'm afraid it's all down to lady luck, if she smiles you'll just be brushing away the road grit, if she's wearing a frown you're in for a world of pain and a few weeks off of work at best. Try as we might to get all Newtonian about it if it's your turn to take a tumble there's not a great deal you can do other than carry a fully charged mobile phone and to make sure someone at home knows your route.

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monkeytrousers | 9 years ago
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Here's one for you all.

I was doing 18mph, found some ice and done my collarbone. Currently on my 6th week off work (hopefully back next week), doing turbo rides and hoping to get out for real next weekend. (Watch it snow on Saturday morning. You heard it here first).

If it's not 5mph or 18mph, what speed is the optimum to have an off?

Any volunteers?

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redmeat replied to monkeytrousers | 9 years ago
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monkeytrousers wrote:

Here's one for you all.

I was doing 18mph, found some ice and done my collarbone. Currently on my 6th week off work (hopefully back next week), doing turbo rides and hoping to get out for real next weekend. (Watch it snow on Saturday morning. You heard it here first).

If it's not 5mph or 18mph, what speed is the optimum to have an off?

Any volunteers?

23.2mph

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Colin Peyresourde | 9 years ago
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Some boffin will probably be able to tell you, but there maybe something in travelling fast and crashing and travelling slowly. It will largely depend how the crash happens. In your scenario it sounds like it was skidding with no external factors like a brick wall absorbing the kinetic energy. It's likely then a combination of the force of the direction in which you were travelling did something to counteract the immediate force from gravity. Whereas at lower speeds the counter active force is quickly over whelmed by gravity.....but last time I studied physics was 23 years ago.

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Chasseur Patate | 9 years ago
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If you're going to crash, crash fast. You can continue riding whilst missing some skin, crashing slow leads to broken bones. Plus I find hitting the deck at pace is infinitely more stylish than simply toppling over.

Ergo, go as fast as you possibly can all the time. We're talking ludicrous speed.

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unistriker | 9 years ago
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Crashing is an art. You want to take out as much energy from the crash in the longest time period possible. It hurts less if you tumble than come to a dead stop. Again Sliding is better than a dead stop.

In a Dead stop the energy is concentrated in a split second, resulting in bigger injuries.

That said Crashing is Crashing, Crashing at a low speed is less energy, but falling square on to the road is bad technique for crashing.

Basically don't crash  1

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Daveyraveygravey | 9 years ago
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I'd been a bit lucky (and/or smug) about riding on ice for a few years, been riding through winter for a few years and had a few moments but until you actually smack yourself hard into terra firma you don't really appreciate how horrible it can be. I was lucky both times to be on very quiet roads and could lie there for a few moments getting my act together. Really scary to think how bad it could be if there were lots of other vehicles around

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Simmo72 | 9 years ago
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Its all so variable. Higher speed off means you tend to slide more which might lessen the impact but depends what you slide into, ie a wall, a car. How you fall also has a bearing, not enough time to get a hand out can work for or against you. Low speed can result in worse injury but again depends how you fall or what you fall on to.

Falling on ice, yes you are are more likely to slide, but then you are more likely to fall off in the first place. I've experienced a bad ice related crash where yes I slid, but unfortunately the wall I slid into was not very absorbent, neither were my bones. I now avoid icy days full stop.

best thing is don't fall off  1

Good idea with the gym, currently doing the same

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