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Interesting post from Wilier on fakes

I thought this was an interesting press release from Wilier on counterfeit frames. They've tested a Cento Uno SR vs an imitation one bought from Ali Express and published the results. Of course being the manufacturer, they would say this, but make of it what you will.

http://blog.wilier.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Fake-Cento1SR-test-EN.pdf

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39 comments

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Tinternet_tim | 9 years ago
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Thanks, an interesting link.
Shame this thread then turned into a "I'm more educated then you" thread.......although it made for an interesting read and was a good example of "How not to conduct yourself on an Internet forum"

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matthewn5 | 9 years ago
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.

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matthewn5 | 9 years ago
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.

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Flying Scot | 9 years ago
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Is it churlish to point out that nowhere on the linked document to Wilier say its CHINESE or where they bought it.

Point is, it's down on every single strength parameter, whilst a similar weight, so it's just not the same.

a mould is just the cake tin at the end of the day.

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pirnie replied to Flying Scot | 9 years ago
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Flying Scot wrote:

Is it churlish to point out that nowhere on the linked document to Wilier say its CHINESE or where they bought it.

Point is, it's down on every single strength parameter, whilst a similar weight, so it's just not the same.

a mould is just the cake tin at the end of the day.

Here's the link to the original press release:

http://www.wilier.com/en/news/beware-fakes-frame

Where they specify they bought it from Aliexpress.com.

I hadn't expected this to cause so much debate  10

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Flying Scot replied to pirnie | 9 years ago
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pirnie wrote:
Flying Scot wrote:

Is it churlish to point out that nowhere on the linked document to Wilier say its CHINESE or where they bought it.

Point is, it's down on every single strength parameter, whilst a similar weight, so it's just not the same.

a mould is just the cake tin at the end of the day.

Here's the link to the original press release:

http://www.wilier.com/en/news/beware-fakes-frame

Where they specify they bought it from Aliexpress.com.

I hadn't expected this to cause so much debate  10

Sorry, the first link to the test sheet didn't say that.

Many thanks.

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notfastenough | 9 years ago
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Aye, whatever. Looking at some of your other posts, you appear to be the new troll around here. Haven't you got schoolwork to do or something?

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notfastenough | 9 years ago
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What?  35

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tritecommentbot replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:

What?  35

Living up to your name, eh  21

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truffy | 9 years ago
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Splitting hairs, perhaps, but it's closer to say that all the fake's values were within 30% of the real Wilier. It depends on what Wilier's manufacturing tolerances are to know whether that's significant, but I suspect it is. And, yes, the genuine article will have a good margin of safety that the knock-off won't match, but if it's being passed off as a Wilier and a purchaser thinks that they're getting a Wilier...

I thought the final photo compared the two forks in the drop test.

I agree that this is not a demonstrably scientific study, and the reporting is a little thin. I doubt that it'll be accepted for publication in The Journal of Bicycle Repair.

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vadido | 9 years ago
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Well all the tests where figures were given the Nm values were within 20%ish. I suspect a Wilier frame has a far margin of safety so the Chinese frame doesn't sound too bad.

Who did Wilier buy from? If they'd said it was a Dengfu sourced frame (I don't know if they make Wilier fakes) then that would give some more meat.

As for the other tests - dropped fork etc, it doesn't sound very scientific and do we know how the Wilier fork fared.

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Blue_Brevatto replied to vadido | 9 years ago
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vadido wrote:

Well all the tests where figures were given the Nm values were within 20%ish. I suspect a Wilier frame has a far margin of safety so the Chinese frame doesn't sound too bad.

The quoted tests are for stiffness (with one exception) - which is not really related to safety. It's probably the easiest thing to match - so long as you put roughly the right amount of material in roughly the same place and with the fibres going in roughly the same direction - presto - the stiffness will be close.

But that says nothing about the absolute strength which will depend on details like exactly what fibres you used and what glues and at what curing temperatures and times ... and so on. Plus the details of the design like exactly what radius the stress concentrations have and how you machined in any additional mounting bosses etc.

I'm also pretty dubious about the drop test - it is only measuring the fracture toughness of a brand new frame under sudden massive load. By that time you're probably going to hit the deck anyway so whether the bike breaks or not might not correlate strongly with your own injuries. Plus it was only on a single sample. I suspect there's a lot of scatter in the results of a test like that so a one-on-one comparison is not significant.

What really matters is the fatigue strength. i.e. the safe life under regular repetitive (but normal) usage. Unfortunately no-one really knows how to predict that for composite structures (even Airbus it seems !). So who knows which frame is safer ?

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vadido replied to Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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That's informative.

Personally I don't agree with buying fake Wilier or fake Dogme's or whatever. At the same time you don't here very few stories of issues with direct import Chinese frames and they mainly seem to be issues with quality control before the bike gets ridden. You'd think the forums would be full of them given the thousands that are sold.

As you said, long term fatigue may be an issue that will rear itself.

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crikey | 9 years ago
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Quote:

The wife won't buy cheap meat and I won't buy cheap willies.

I commend your wife for her approach to quality, but wonder about the difference between cheap and expensive willies?

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mattsccm | 9 years ago
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I see why people buy the things. Firstly they are cheap and I for one do not subscribe to the idea that expensive is best. That's just shows off your wealth which is fine but who is so stupid as to throw away money?
Of course greater price can reflect greater quality and we all have our favourites in that respect. The wife won't buy cheap meat and I won't buy cheap willies. Price is not always proportional to quality. To me Rapha isn't 10 times as good a quality as Aldi. It doesn't last 10 times as long . Fit can't be included as that's personal.
The other point is that many of us try not to pay for what we don't get. How do we really know if the genuine Willier or what ever isn't the same as a copy? The manufacture's claims have to be biased at best. I don't see any issue in some one making a profit. In fact its downright immoral not to but at the same time not from me!  21
Finally will the pompous political whinger above clear off, this is a cycling website

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truffy replied to mattsccm | 9 years ago
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mattsccm wrote:

Finally will the pompous political whinger above clear off, this is a cycling website

+1

And, like crikey, I was also perplexed about the cheap willies.

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crikey | 9 years ago
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I'm not commenting on price, more on the way that companies chose to out-source manufacturing. If they think that frames built elsewhere and then badged up represent a traceable and respectable business model, it seems churlish of them to complain about other people doing exactly the same, intellectual property rights notwithstanding.

The bike industry has used tradition and paid lip service to the idea of culture to sell stuff to people who are not well informed and who place great value on the idea of an Italian frame, for example.

It would seem that the concept of quality as a determinant has been somewhat overlooked, and to use a one off test as an example of 'quality' merely exposes the whole smoke and mirrors setup.

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Beefy | 9 years ago
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Fair trade bicycles should only be purchased so as to make sure they are ethical from carbon to road bike... Produced only in countries where freedom Is respected and all at an affordable price ah oh well that's nowhere in the world then.... Bloody capitalist and bloody communists ah bloody humans!  35

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crikey | 9 years ago
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I'm sure it's an attempt to address the issue, just not very well done. Given the whole open mould, Chinarello, buy direct from the factory thing that is now common, I think that boat has sailed.

I have an irrational and historic dislike of any Italian frame other than Colnago because there were a rash of companies in the UK who thought that sticking an Italian sounding name on a bought in frame gave it some credibility, and I suspect that a number of Italian brands are simple rebadging of open mould framesets who rely on history to provide a sense of worth.

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vadido | 9 years ago
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So basically Willier are telling us there are marginal differences between a fake and a real frame?

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truffy replied to vadido | 9 years ago
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vadido wrote:

So basically Willier are telling us there are marginal differences between a fake and a real frame?

That's not how I read it. It seems that some of the differences are quite marked.

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crikey | 9 years ago
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//i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/353/279/e31.jpg)

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notfastenough | 9 years ago
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Crikey has a point. I get that many products and services need to be outsourced and/or offshored to keep the brand company competitive, but if you outsource your proprietary designs to a country famous for a. it's widespread counterfeiting, and b. evidence that even the state colludes in this practise, with efforts to hack into overseas computer systems being traced to Chinese government sources, can a company really be surprised to then find counterfeit products being made available?

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tritecommentbot replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:

Crikey has a point. I get that many products and services need to be outsourced and/or offshored to keep the brand company competitive, but if you outsource your proprietary designs to a country famous for a. it's widespread counterfeiting, and b. evidence that even the state colludes in this practise, with efforts to hack into overseas computer systems being traced to Chinese government sources, can a company really be surprised to then find counterfeit products being made available?

As opposed a country like ours that colludes in mass surveillance of its own citizens including capturing private webcam imagery? Or maybe that's okay, and it's our bombing and torturing of overseas nationals in cooked up neo-con war plots that you have issue with? Perhaps you don't mind that but are opposed to the way we're run by corporate interests, landed gentry and a bunch of self-serving career politicians ensuring wealth inequality widens?

Take your red scare sanctimony elsewhere please.

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notfastenough replied to tritecommentbot | 9 years ago
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unconstituted wrote:
notfastenough wrote:

Crikey has a point. I get that many products and services need to be outsourced and/or offshored to keep the brand company competitive, but if you outsource your proprietary designs to a country famous for a. it's widespread counterfeiting, and b. evidence that even the state colludes in this practise, with efforts to hack into overseas computer systems being traced to Chinese government sources, can a company really be surprised to then find counterfeit products being made available?

As opposed a country like ours that colludes in mass surveillance of its own citizens including capturing private webcam imagery? Or maybe that's okay, and it's our bombing and torturing of overseas nationals in cooked up neo-con war plots that you have issue with? Perhaps you don't mind that but are opposed to the way we're run by corporate interests, landed gentry and a bunch of self-serving career politicians ensuring wealth inequality widens?

Take your red scare sanctimony elsewhere please.

Quality rant, that! I have Chinese heritage, and if it wasn't for Special Branch rounding up and deporting Chinese sailors (who had helped in the Allied war effort) after WWII to avoid the wrath of returning British soldiers, I would probably have stronger links to my roots (and likely a Chinese name too). That doesn't make me blind to the realities of the market. Try searching on eBay for Zipps or Cosmic Carbones and see what you find. Tip: £300 from Shenzen says they probably aren't real. So talking to me about the traits of Chinese culture or British government misbehavior is barking up the wrong tree sir.

As for calling me sanctimonious, er... Pot, kettle, black.

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tritecommentbot replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:
unconstituted wrote:
notfastenough wrote:

Crikey has a point. I get that many products and services need to be outsourced and/or offshored to keep the brand company competitive, but if you outsource your proprietary designs to a country famous for a. it's widespread counterfeiting, and b. evidence that even the state colludes in this practise, with efforts to hack into overseas computer systems being traced to Chinese government sources, can a company really be surprised to then find counterfeit products being made available?

As opposed a country like ours that colludes in mass surveillance of its own citizens including capturing private webcam imagery? Or maybe that's okay, and it's our bombing and torturing of overseas nationals in cooked up neo-con war plots that you have issue with? Perhaps you don't mind that but are opposed to the way we're run by corporate interests, landed gentry and a bunch of self-serving career politicians ensuring wealth inequality widens?

Take your red scare sanctimony elsewhere please.

Quality rant, that! I have Chinese heritage, and if it wasn't for Special Branch rounding up and deporting Chinese sailors (who had helped in the Allied war effort) after WWII to avoid the wrath of returning British soldiers, I would probably have stronger links to my roots (and likely a Chinese name too). That doesn't make me blind to the realities of the market. Try searching on eBay for Zipps or Cosmic Carbones and see what you find. Tip: £300 from Shenzen says they probably aren't real. So talking to me about the traits of Chinese culture or British government misbehavior is barking up the wrong tree sir.

As for calling me sanctimonious, er... Pot, kettle, black.

Think you (and maybe some other noggins too) missed the point.

Bringing political issues like hacking allegations into a situation like fake bike frames is convoluted and misguided. Ofc that would look like the pot calling the kettle black. That was the point of my post, I was holding a mirror to you.

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notfastenough replied to tritecommentbot | 9 years ago
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unconstituted wrote:

Think you (and maybe some other noggins too) missed the point.

Bringing political issues like hacking allegations into a situation like fake bike frames is convoluted and misguided. Ofc that would look like the pot calling the kettle black. That was the point of my post, I was holding a mirror to you.

Holding a mirror to me, my arse. My point was, it's entirely forseeable that the Chinese judicial system would not enforce intellectual property rights, so handing over proprietary designs to a manufacturing outfit there carries obvious and visible risks.

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tritecommentbot replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:
unconstituted wrote:

Think you (and maybe some other noggins too) missed the point.

Bringing political issues like hacking allegations into a situation like fake bike frames is convoluted and misguided. Ofc that would look like the pot calling the kettle black. That was the point of my post, I was holding a mirror to you.

Holding a mirror to me, my arse. My point was, it's entirely forseeable that the Chinese judicial system would not enforce intellectual property rights, so handing over proprietary designs to a manufacturing outfit there carries obvious and visible risks.

It's entirely foreseeable that any judicial system would not enforce intellectual property rights.

That's why we have, you know, judicial systems  21

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Paul J replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:

the Chinese judicial system would not enforce intellectual property rights, so handing over proprietary designs to a manufacturing outfit there carries obvious and visible risks.

It's worth noting that a hundred years ago or less, the US didn't recognise (and so wouldn't enforce) foreign patents. Prior to that, at least some European nations also had periods of not recognising foreign patents. So... Funnily enough, these periods often correspond with periods of great economic development too.

That said, I think China *does* recognise foreign patents, and I believe it is possible to sue there to enforce your patents, if you really want. What the success rates are, I don't know.

It's also worth noting that the Anglo/US/Western patent system is not necessarily a very good system to follow, for innovators or society generally.

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