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Re: cadence - why can't I peddle faster and do I really need to?

Hi,
First time poster, sorry if it's in the wrong place on the forum.

I read and hear that a cadence of 90+ is the most efficient rpm for cycling. I've been riding a bike, mtb and road for most of my life, but occasionally competitively for the last 15 years. I'm now 40. On the turbo I struggle to get over 80rpm at a constant power output - looking at what I'm doing on long climbs I'm lucky to average 65rpm. Riders that I ride with at the same sort of pace are up in the high 80's, low 90's. If I drop a gear or 5 and try and match their cadence I get lactate building very quickly and I drop off the pace.

I've a mate who has just started riding and I've given him some 'advice' he we'll over a 100kg and my age. His can maintain a cadence of well over 90 on the trainer and on the road. What gives?

Watching old clips of riders in the late 80's of earlier the cadence seems much slower (ie lemond). My question is, do I really need to focus on my hideously slow legs? Or do I just ignore it. I don't get as many knee problems as I used to and wonder if I'm just not physiologically able to increase my cadence that much. I've tried in small increments (like trying to ride at 81rpm, rather than 80 rpm on the trainer) but hit a lactate brick wall on every attempt, and as it's painful to try it reduces my motivator to carry on.

Any ideas?

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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32 comments

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adrianoconnor | 9 years ago
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Maybe try riding mostly in your small ring over winter. Your muscles should pretty soon adapt, probably within a few weeks, and you'll find you can eventually ride the same sort of speeds with the lower gears as you could before in the big gears.

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bigmel | 9 years ago
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The post by notfastenough is the most helpful here.

We see this a lot in the bike club, new riders with low cadences pushing a high gear. Effectively you are constantly straining your muscles and knees with high torque grinding, and your endurance is poor as the muscle fibres eventually become fatigued.

Instead, think many smaller pushes instead of a few large ones.
The benefits of the easier pedal strokes are numerous - more fat utilisation as individual stroke power requirement falls, less muscle strain & fatigue, development of oxygen & fuel pathways.
And as long as you can fuel yourself, endurance.

You will need to sort out your pedal stroke to produce a smooth action as the revs rise (no bouncing around in the saddle).

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roadie69 | 9 years ago
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Yup, only train on the road (or trainer for intervals). I went for what was supposed to be recovery spin on Monday and bumped into some riding buddies and the pace sped up on the flat, we were going quite a rate (44kph) and I checked my cadence when I got home and I was well over 90. So it just looks to me that I'm grinding up climbs, but fine on the flats. So my body is able to do the cadence. I run a compact and 12/26 on the back, but still seem to run out of gears to keep up to 90rpm on the climbs. Most of them (the long ones) are less than 7% where I live. I think it I was trying to do 90rpm up a climb in my easiest gear I'd be putting out over 500 watts. I just can't do that for long enough to get to the top of a long climb without loosing a lung.

Loose weight, or buy more gears?

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Simon E replied to roadie69 | 9 years ago
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roadie69 wrote:

Loose weight, or buy more gears?

If you can only do one then lose weight. It will do far more for both your health and physical fitness than any amount of bike bling (and you'll feel better for it).

A cassette with 28 teeth will help a bit but you will gain far more by working on your condition and technique. There are lots of articles out there, this is a good place to start:
http://cyclinguphill.com/cycle-uphill-techniques/
Very detailed but some good points here:
http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

And remember that nothing worth achieving is ever easy.

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Quince replied to Simon E | 9 years ago
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Simon E wrote:
roadie69 wrote:

Loose weight, or buy more gears?

If you can only do one then lose weight. It will do far more for both your health and physical fitness than any amount of bike bling (and you'll feel better for it).

A cassette with 28 teeth will help a bit but you will gain far more by working on your condition and technique. There are lots of articles out there, this is a good place to start:
http://cyclinguphill.com/cycle-uphill-techniques/
Very detailed but some good points here:
http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

And remember that nothing worth achieving is ever easy.

I found that first think really informative, so thank you for posting it. It's nice to see an article on climbing by someone with a lot of experience of tackling British hills - which tend to be a different sort of beast from their long, but gentler Alpine cousins.

If the OP hasn't already done so, I would recommend giving the first link a solid read.

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racyrich | 9 years ago
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Do you train in a group on the road?
Go on a group ride, sit on the back and make sure you're in at least one gear lower than the next lowest geared person in the group. Ideally this will be on a flattish route.
The neurological adaptations needed to make fast pedalling natural are best learned when you're not also having to try hard. Skill training and fitness training are best kept separate until you're well-trained enough to start combining them.

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jollygoodvelo | 9 years ago
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I'm lucky in that my legs seem to just naturally flap around at 90rpm unless the resistance is too much, a legacy of trying to ride my bikes down hills as fast as possible when I was a kid. However I have trouble climbing the very steepest hills because once I'm in bottom gear and my cadence slows the longer duration of each 'push' really starts to burn.

Having said that, with a 34x32 on the CX when I say steep we really are talking about >15% ... not too many of them around.

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Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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As commented above... practice makes perfect.

From what I am reading I'd say that you are simply going too hard when trying to use a higher cadence. So rather than changing down, you are pressing harder on the pedals.

Make sure you increase cadence by lowering the gearing.

And also, you have to do this slowly... if you currently pedal at 60rpm, trying to pedal at 90 is a huge leap, akin to going from 90rpm to 135rpm. Do easy sessions where you ride at 70rpm for 5mins at a time, and gradually build the time at that cadence up. Then once its comfy after a few rides, start again at 5mins at 75rpm.

The benefit of a higher cadence is less about energy sources and more about muscle utilisation as I understand it. You are moving the strain away from your muscular system to your aerobic. Ultimately your aerobic system has more scope, can be trained harder and adapted more than your muscle strength and resilience.

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roadie69 | 9 years ago
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Probably, but usually only on the longer climbs. They are pretty skinny too which would help.

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Airzound | 9 years ago
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The thing about cadence is you should be able to ride the same cadence comfortably in each gear and use it to determine when you should change up or down a cog for instance if you are spinning too fast or slow. This way you can work out how long you can ride in each gear and your power output to either scalp some one, keep up with the bunch or start a break away.  4 .

90-95 is fairly comfortable, being able to raise to 110-115 pushing on and maybe 120 for sprints.

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roadie69 | 9 years ago
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Well, it's coming along. I did a largish climb the other day with some mates. About a 400 metres vertical. I managed to keep a cadence up of 78 average, although I was spinning at 90 for some of it.

It did feel easier, depsite getting some lactic acid build up when really spinning, but that's probably more of a power output issue, I didn't have a power meter on, but probably around 400 watts, so I guess that would be an issue what ever the cadence.

I'll keep battling on with it. I've a 200km 'race' next weekend, with some nasty climbs, so will try and keep my cadence up in the hope that it'll reduce muscle fatigue later in the ride.

One thing that is a worry was that my legs were a bit toasted after last weekends efforts with the high cadence and I'm hoping that it was just coincidental.

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Lost faith in t... | 9 years ago
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i assume your using spds?

if not thats the issue?

but also dont worry not everyone can keep that cadence, larger people (not meaning you specifically as i dont know your size but more a general statement) have a lower cadence naturally.

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mtbtomo | 9 years ago
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As per the other posts, make sure your saddle is the right height and position (fore/aft). If it is, and you can keep up with your riding partners and can go the distance then I wouldn't worry too much.

Some of the pros pedal at seemingly unnatural high cadences - doesn't mean we all have to though!

I like pushing a higher gear than I probably should, but as my body manages ok with the stress and I'm fine keeping up and going the distance, I'm not too bothered about what my actual cadence is.

I only have a cadence sensor on the bike on the turbo. Out on the road there's other stuff to worry about first!  1

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Colin Peyresourde | 9 years ago
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It's mostly about getting used to the gearing. I would just persist with training at the higher cadence. If you ride a mountain bike or other bike you'll find that a lower cadence than the 90 works, but you just have to keep with it.
In your post you don't say if you're travelling at a faster speed or a higher gear when spinning out. I would drop a gear and match your speed. Your knees will thank you for it.

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exilegareth | 9 years ago
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I worked hard this year at raising cadence - I'm new to road biking, and often guilty of stamping on the pedals rather than spinning the right gear.
I found the answer was thirty or forty five minute sessions on the static bike where I went up in 5 rpm steps per minute, then back down again. It taught me to be conscious of my cadence, and I added in little mantras about being aware of all the muscles that contribute to a pedalling stroke - so if you're one of the people I've overtaken (or who's overtaken me) while chanting 'Stomach and thighs stomach and thighs' (so that I remember to pull up on the reciprocal half of each stroke, not just press down on half the stroke) I apologize.

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Quince | 9 years ago
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I think I'm far from perfect, but the way my cadence has naturally increased is through a developing more efficient pedalling motion. Like you, I rode a single speed (fixed gear, to be precise) for quite a long time, and rather than helping me spin, I think it turned me into more of a grinder.

The times when I would be required to 'load' the pedals most heavily would be when going uphill, which naturally gives you a harder gear (in fact, I'd normally get out the the saddle at any hint of a hill), so the idea of 'spinning' up hills was really unnatural when I climbed back on a gear road bike. On a similar thread, whenever I was going downhill, I was scared of 'spinning out', and so wouldn't really put much force into the pedals at all.

I had quite a lot of relearning to do when I bought another proper road bike; mainly how to go fast without pedalling slow. It's kind of simple to go fast in a high gear - you just push hard wherever you can and bingo: speed. In a low gear, there's nothing really to 'push hard' against, so I'd find if I tried to keep a high cadence, it would require dropping a load of gears and then just flailing my legs around, without really going anywhere. One thing I've got better at is applying a moderate amount of pressure, all the way around the pedal stroke (or, more of the way around it). I'm applying less pressure, but over a larger proportion of the pedal stroke, which equates to roughly the same amount of power down (I think), as well as being more efficient.

As for why you'd want to, I've found that I can incorporate certain muscles better into a lighter, smoother pedal stroke (only the bigger pistons would really get involved in the high gears), but there's also something more subtle I've noticed, involving the terrain.

If I'm already pushing quite a high gear, then the 'ceiling' where that becomes 'too high' isn't far off. That means when the gradient turns up - even by a little - I either have to stand up, change gear under load (because of the high gear) or back of my pedalling and change gear, which results in a drop of speed. If I'm comfortable doing the same speed in an easier gear, and the gradient raises its head briefly, then at worst, I'll just be pushing against the same resistance I was comfortably cycling at previously. The road might level out or drop relatively quickly, and not demand getting out of the saddle or changing gears, as in the previous example.

In short, being able to maintain a higher cadence should give you more room for 'modulation' when the terrain is a bit more rolling, and mean you don't have to keep grabbing handfuls of gears, or keep jumping out of the saddle every few seconds. However, everyone has their own preferences, so I wouldn't advice getting too fixated over a specific number.

I'm sorry if that's a bit long, but it's something I've been thinking about quite a lot too. I hope there's something in what I've said.

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Nzlucas replied to Quince | 9 years ago
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Good post Quince, if you have ever played around with a power meter it interesting when you watch how you can put out the same amount of Watts at 90+rpm as you can at 60rpm. It just feels completely different yet the number is there showing you that your making the same amount of effort.

To the OP, although you will genetically have a preposition towards a certain mix of slow and fast twitch muscle fibres, but you can train lactic threshold. It will not happen overnight, but if you stick at it your threshold will get better. You will find your legs will change over time also. I naturally lost some bulk when I started focusing on hills and a slightly higher cadence. I am not a 'spinner' by any means but 80-90rpm is good for me in most situations and higher in the few races i have done. I lost weight at the same time. Have a hill you ride often and once a month give it a effort and track your progress, its good to have the positive reinforcement.

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CXR94Di2 | 9 years ago
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I trained to spin more, which doesn't take too long to adapt. I could manage 95-100 rpm on long rides but struggled to keep up with the pack. I decided to lower my cadence as an experiment, pushing a bigger gear, which for me feels more natural. My speed jumped up. So now I spin around 80 - 85 rpm. I still spin 80+rpm uphills.

Find what is natural for you while giving you the maximum speed over distance.

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roadie69 | 9 years ago
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I think that my bike fit is pretty good. I ride a 56.6 top tube (I'm just a smidge under 6 foot) ride a 172.5 crank. Always have. And have quite long limbs, so have the saddle reasonably high. I was in the bike trade 10 years, so am confident that my position etc is resonable, I just can't get my legs to spin within getting lactic acid build up is all.

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roadie69 | 9 years ago
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Him thanks for the advice, in particularly the spelling - who knew! I used to ride single speed a lot (off road) so maybe rather than help, it made things worst, as most of the time you are grinding.

The main concern for me is efficiency, as I'm planning a long ride(race) and I've read the spinning realies on fat burning for energy, rather than glycogen. Although that didn't stop people back in the ebay travelling massive distances each day in races, so I'm wondering how apparent the difference actually is?

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kostya416 replied to roadie69 | 9 years ago
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roadie69 wrote:

The main concern for me is efficiency

Actually the most efficient cadence as a ratio for spent metabolic energy vs mechanical energy produced is about 60 give or take. This goes for a regular Joe Schmoe who does not have big FTP. As the Joe Schmoe progresses the FTP grows. With the increase of FTP the optimal cadence increase as well (up to a certain point of course). For world class athlete going for 1hr record (consider it as ultimate FTP test) the optimal cadence will be above 100. If the same athlete is going for 10 hr long ride then he/she can not really ride at FTP. The average power will be lower and so will the cadence. There are many studies and articles available on the Internet in regards to the topic. Google "ideal cadence" for example. By doing few tests you might find what it the optimal cadence for you instead of trying to copy Lance Armstrong when you are not really up to that level.

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Airzound replied to kostya416 | 9 years ago
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roadie69 wrote:

By doing few tests you might find what it the optimal cadence for you instead of trying to copy Lance Armstrong when you are not really up to that level.

But LA was doped up to his eyeballs, so is probably not the best role model.

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kostya416 replied to Airzound | 9 years ago
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Airzound wrote:

But LA was doped up to his eyeballs, so is probably not the best role model.

Well replace LA with ANY top level TdF rider (there must be at least one who was clean  19 ). Doping or not those guys are monster riding machines and they'd leave normal human far behind no matter what state they're in.

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chokofingrz | 9 years ago
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The best advice I can give is forget about your cadence number, banish the idea from your mind and your computer screen. Ride in a gear that feels comfortable, and when going uphill, always change down a gear sooner rather than later. Your legs will learn the benefits without your brain needing to be involved.

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KirinChris | 9 years ago
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The advice above is all good but the critical question is whether it is worth doing?

There is no inherent reason for you to spin at higher cadence. There are many reasons people do spin - different load, avoiding cramps, easier on knees etc.

But if none of these apply to you and you're perfectly happy as you are then I would not feel compelled to spin.

Unless you're getting left behind on climbs because you are grinding along, or having knee problems or some other issue, then I'd leave it.

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notfastenough | 9 years ago
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Welcome to the forum. Mobydick has a good point, bike sizing/position might well be the issue.

We can't see what you look like on a bike, but is your upper body moving much, your shoulders swaying for example? If you lack stability/strength in your core, then higher cadence will cause you to 'bounce' on the saddle, and this may make you fatigue sooner.

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glynr36 replied to notfastenough | 9 years ago
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You're a grinder, relying on leg strength to get power out, not spinning.
The reason you feel it more in your legs when you try to spin is that it places more demand on your Cardio vascular system, not your muscular system.

It's a case of training to adapt to spinning, won't happen over night and takes some work to do.

All the other things people have mentioned are true, but they're secondary to the fact physiologically spinning places different stresses on the body to grinding,

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thereverent | 9 years ago
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I use to have a similar problem.
I worked on a spin bike at lunchtimes doing set of 3mins at 90rpm, 2 mins at 100rpm, 1 min at 110rm, 30 Sec at 120 rpm then back to the begining.

Riding a single speed bike can help as the only way you can go faster is to pedal faster.

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MKultra replied to thereverent | 9 years ago
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thereverent wrote:

I use to have a similar problem.
I worked on a spin bike at lunchtimes doing set of 3mins at 90rpm, 2 mins at 100rpm, 1 min at 110rm, 30 Sec at 120 rpm then back to the begining.

Riding a single speed bike can help as the only way you can go faster is to pedal faster.

A fixed sprocket will work better in that respect as if you want to go faster you have no choice but to spin faster as you can not freewheel.

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MKultra | 9 years ago
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Get a fixed for winter.

42X16 will do just fine.

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