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Help upgrading an old Raleigh Vitesse

Just signed up here so first things first, hello everyone!

Started riding about three months ago and I’ve now got the bug. I find myself reading nothing but bike stuff these days and boring the hell out of the Mrs. For now I’m using my very old Raleigh Vitesse road bike. It’s a bit of a bone shaker and the gearset is the cheapest of cheapy cheap Shimano gearsets. I’m trying to hold off buying a good bike until Spring as I don’t want to spend a pile of cash on a bike that is going to get hammered by winter riding on wet roads. So my plan was to upgrade my 10 year old Vitesse cheaply with a second hand Shimano Tiagra groupset courtesy of Ebay and use it through the winter before I buy a new one in Spring.

Fitting the new groupset all seems fairly straightforward, except for one thing. I’m totally baffled by the whole bottom bracket business (which is actually no more a bracket than clipless pedals are clipless???)! Anyways, could one of you far more knowledgeable people please give me a steer?

If I buy the relevant Shimano BB to fit the groupset, will it fit into the shell of my old Raleigh? And how do I tell what BB I need?

Any help would be very gratefully received.

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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pauls68 | 9 years ago
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In the end I fitted some Shimano Tourney STIs and a Tourney RD, replaced all the cables and everything now works fine. Now shifting perfectly into every gear!

BTW I've just noticed that I can't create any new forum posts. Does anyone have any idea why this might be? I'm not really familiar with this forum so maybe I've missed something?

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Markus | 9 years ago
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http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html
I'd have it checked by a LBS . It might need just need a new chain, new cables, brake blocks, bearing balls and such. A new Shimano freewheel might also improve functionality, but I'd If the rear hub actually has a freewheel, I'd suggest keeping the setup as 3x7 , especially if the current shifters and dérailleurs can be made to function correctly with some TLC. The 3x7 STI is a also reasonable upgrade, bearing in mind compatibility issues.
If the rear wheel has an reasonably modern freehub with a cassette, then further upgrades make more sense.

If you want to learn about bike mechanics, well that is all good. But it's just an old bike, not a vintage treasure. I suggest you do the minimal repairs needed and ride it. All the time you spend working on the mechanics or researching the possibilities is time off the bike. Or doing something else.

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drfabulous0 | 9 years ago
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If you have 7 gears currently at the back your rear wheel will probably have a screw on freewheel and won't be compatible with more gears, you can get 8 speed freewheels but the axle spacing and dish have to be altered and it increases the wear rate of the bearings, therefore 8 speed usually uses a cassette and more than 8 always does. This means you will have to get a new wheel, which to my mind is far more of an issue than inconsistancies with pull ratio and varying bottom bracket types because your bike isn't old enough to have weird stuff on.

If I were you I would start by getting a brand new set of Shimano Tourney 7 speed STIs and some bar tape and just installing that with what you already have on the bike. That will improve your shifting no end, but for further improvements you can add new chains, freewheels, derailleurs and cranks at your leisure and at relatively little cost without ever coming up against compatibility issues. I agree you should get new brakes but not because they won't work with the levers but more because the ones you have are probably rubbish compared to cheap modern dual pivot varieties such as Tektro.

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pauls68 replied to drfabulous0 | 9 years ago
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drfabulous0 thanks for the reply. Wasn't aware of the freewheel issue (rapidly discovering just how much I don't ). However, just Googled 9 speed freewheels and there are some made by Sunrace.

But I was interested to see that you think just fitting the Tourney STIs will improve the shifting. Forgive my ignorance but why would that be?

Also, do you know if these shifters are any good?

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Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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Apologies for another intrusion, after this I really will shut-up, but I'm afraid I just had one more thought that you really need check. Brakes!

Forget about the BB and the crankset - the first question you need to ask is what are you going to do about the brakes?

Your OP implied you were buying a "groupset" - is that going to include new brake calipers? If it is then that's OK - but you need to check that the "brake reach" for the calipers you are buying is compatible with your frame. Once again Sheldon Brown can help for the definition and illustration - but there's really only two standards for modern road bikes, 'normal-reach' = 39-49mm and 'long-reach' = 47-57mm. If your frame was designed for long reach brakes to give lots of tyre clearance then a 'normal' reach Tiagra brake won't fit - it wont reach the rim!
However this is pretty easily sorted as you just need to buy the right brake calipers. (I don't think that they HAVE to be Shimano so long as they have the correct reach and are described as "dual-pivot").

The other option you may be taking is to leave the current calipers in place and just wire them up to the new (STI) combined levers. If you do that it is REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT !!! you check that the two are compatible. Specifically in terms of the amount of cable pull required to operate the lever effectively and produce sufficient braking force. There are pitfalls in both directions (i.e. if the lever pulls too much cable it will not produce enough braking force - if it pulls too little then either the brakes will continually rub - or they won't engage at all before the lever runs out of movement. This is a safety issue and you MUST be certain that what you are doing will work. (Which is why the option of buying new calipers with the groupset is simpler so long as you get the correct reach).

I don't know exactly what standard of lever and calipers you currently have - and I don't know the compatibility options anyway. (I do know you cannot mix MTB and road combinations for example). From looking at some older Vitesse bikes on e-bay I think they came with what are called "Single-Pivot Side-pull" calipers. But you should be able to check this by comparing your brakes with pictures on the internet. The modern standard for road bikes is "dual-pivot Side-pull". These give more mechanical advantage and greater stopping power. Now if you hook-up a modern STI combined lever with the old style of calipers you will (I think) be getting less braking force than the m/f intended.

I can't say for certain if this is safe or not - it's probably still better than the brakes that I grew up with - but it's less than design intent - and that doesn't sound good to me. If you do decide to stick with the current calipers then at least be aware of this and take it for a gentle spin first. And as soon as you can test it again in the wet (obviously at a place and time where stopping is NOT essential !).

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drfabulous0 replied to Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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Blue_Brevatto wrote:

Blah blah blah blah blah.....

Dude you're really overcomplicating the humble bicycle, manufacturers will always tell you everything is incompatible because they want you to buy more stuff, but if it can be made to fit and works acceptably then there's really no problem, and that's the case with the vast majority of bike bits.

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pauls68 replied to Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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Blue_Brevatto thanks again for your very detailed and helpful response.

Yes I know Tiagra might seem like overkill. Hopefully I won’t get too many strange looks though. Those in the know normally whizz past me at too fast a speed to see what gearset I have in any event!  3

But as you say anything will be a big improvement. I’m happy to look at Sora as well, but to be honest there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of difference in price for second hand stuff.

I’m buying the individual components one by one rather than a complete groupset, as it seems to be a bit cheaper that way. It also means I can mix and match to some extent depending on what will work together obviously and what I can get hold of at a good price.

As regards brakes, the ones I have are single pivot side pull as you said. I was going to keep what I have for now (assuming they work ok with the STIs). I had assumed (a dangerous word I know) that I could get a decent braking force by adjusting cable length to suit. Of course I may be totally wrong about that. If needs be I’ll get new brakes as well.

As for the BB fitting, I knew I would have to get a few new tools, but have to admit I didn’t realise there might be quite so many. Looks like Ebay will getting quite a bit of business from me! For those tools I only need once I will probably buy them, use once, then sell on. At least that’s the plan.

But your advice on what steps to take are very useful thank you. Think I’ll read up on it a bit more, watch a few Youtubes and then make a decision about whether to do it myself or get a professional to do it.

Once again many thanks indeed for the time you’ve taken to reply and for your advice. I’ll be sure to add to this post once I’ve finished the job in a few weeks time and let you know how I get on.

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Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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OK - thanks for the link - that clears up a few things. Firstly the bike probably is 10-12 years old as you say and not some much earlier Raleigh model - that's good news for you because it's more likely to still be compatible with a modern group-set. Especially if it currently has a Shimano crankset - I'm less bothered about how cheap it is - but assuming it is Shimano it again makes it more likely that the BB underneath is a standard item and hence replaceable.

I have to say that fitting something such as a Tiagra group-set to that frame seems a bit over-kill to me and may raise a few eyebrows. If you're getting an absolute bargain on a 2nd hand group-set then fair enough. But to be honest just fitting 8-speed Claris would make a huge difference, especially if the bike has not had any maintenance in those 10 years. Whatever you fit make sure you fit new outer cables too! Anyway it's your bike and if you end up happy with it then it's not for anyone else to criticise.

So let's assume you DO want to change the crankset and bottom bracket. Here's what I would do.

1. Take a look at the centre of the crank (either side - it shouldn't matter). There should be a plastic cap protecting the location where the crank would meet the axle. You should be able to prize it off with a large flat bladed screwdriver - try not to damage it - although it doesn't really matter if you do.
(That of course assumes it is still in place - mine don't last more than a couple of years before they end up as road-fall!)

2. Under the cap - or where the cap used to be - you should see the head of a bolt - it might be a Hex-head - or it might be round with a location for a socket driver. Either way you need to undo that bolt. From memory I think it is a normal RH thread on both sides - but be warned -if you didn't know already- some bike parts (pedals and BBs in particular) have different threads (left/right handed) on either side and it's not always the same way round !!!).

3. Having got the bolt out what do you see ? I'm hoping & guessing you see a square end of metal (the axle) inside a larger diameter hole (the inside of the crank) and at the centre is the hole from which you just removed the bolt. In that case you probably have a square taper bottom bracket.

You can do all without any specialist tools (assuming you own a socket set). But to go further you need to start buying - or borrowing them. If you work in an office or anywhere with other cyclists it's worth asking around - you are not going to use these tools very often and someone else might well have them).

4. You're going to need a crank extractor (aka crank puller) AND a bottom bracket extractor. If you want to be ultra-conservative then buy the crank puller first and get the cranks off (there are plenty of vids on YouTube that will explain how to do this much better than I can in words). Then you can take a look at the bottom bracket.

PS (edit) before you remove the cranks - measure the current chain-line using the middle ring of the triple you currently have - see Sheldon Brown for the definition if you're not sure. It's hard to measure in one shot so try measuring to one side of the BB-shell - then the other side - then take the average to get the distance to the centre of the bike. Keep this for reference in case you have problems later.

5. At this point you have another choice to make. You either try to remove the BB yourself - for which you are going to have to buy another tool that you may only use once (unless you decide to re-fit the same type of BB - which is unlikely if you want to upgrade to Sora or Tiagra). Your other option is to take the bike frame into your LBS and just pay them to remove the BB. Personally if it's been in there 10 years with little or no maintenance and of unknown quality to start with ... I'd take it to an LBS (another lesson I learned the hard way!!!). Whatever they charge you for the labour - pay it - for this job it's worth it, trust me! But if you really want to try removing it yourself you'll need a another special tool to fit into the end of the BB (probably a castellated ring feature). You are also going to need to rig up/bodge something to hold the tool in place on the end of the BB under load (e.g. using the crank bolt & large washers or something similar). Lastly you'll need a very!!! long spanner of the right size. And this is where you need to check the thread direction carefully before you start heaving - normally the right hand side of the bike (when on bike looking forwards) has a LH thread on the BB-shell. You probably won't be able to check with the original manufacturer so you're going to have to guess - another reason why you might prefer the LBS option here.

PS. If you ask the LBS to do it get them to keep the BB - so you can note down any part numbers or technical details - a Shimano BB will have written on the barrel all of the relevant dimensions including the thread type and diameters and also the axle length. This will be useful in trying to confirm the BB-shell thread type/pitch/dia - it may also help if you get into problems setting the chain-line - at least you know how it was achieved before.
Hopefully it will say something like " 1.370inch X 24 tpi " - that is the standard you are looking for to be compatible with a modern Shimano Hollowtech style external BB.

6. However you get the BB out the next step will be to inspect the threads inside the BB shell. Obviously they need to be clean - but also undamaged. If you cross-thread the new BB when you fit it you could write-off the frame not just the bearing assembly. Ideally you also want to check that the end-faces of the BB-shell are parallel to each other and parallel to the vertical plane of the bike. You can't check this yourself so it's either an LBS job or you chance it. A good quality modern frame WILL (or certainty SHOULD) meet these criteria because it will have been designed with external BBs in mind. But older or cheaper frames may not be so good. They won't be intentionally non-parallel, but the manufacturing tolerances and inspection may not have been so stringent. If you don't want to bother getting it checked out then you can just accept there is an increased risk of premature bearing failure. This probably isn't a disaster. If you managed to fail the axle it might be nasty - but you'd probably feel or hear that many miles before it actually failed.

That's probably enough to be going on with. Assuming you get to the point where you have a clean bottom bracket shell with compatible threads then you are well on your way. You'll need another special tool to fit the new BBs. And you need to follow very carefully the instructions for attaching the cranks - on some makes there is a locating pin that MUST be correctly fitted to avoid accidental dis-engagement. The other catch is making sure you fit any spacer(s) that may be required to give the correct chain-line. A road compact double may not need them but a triple will - new parts would come with anything required - if buying 2nd hand make sure you get (or source separately) any spacer you might need.

I did warn you it was complicated ! (:-)

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matthewn5 | 9 years ago
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Beware of old Raleigh bottom brackets, they used their own proprietary standard 26tpi on all threads, including the bottom bracket. The modern BB will be 24tpi. While some have reported success at screwing new cups in, you're better off getting your BB refaced and a 24tpi thread cut at the same time.

Oh - I see it's not a Raleigh. OK, ignore this.

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Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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Hi,

can you just clarify something for us ... you said "I’m using my very old Raleigh Vitesse road bike" But you also said in later reply "It has 21 gears (3x7) with the old twist grip shifters".

Do you really mean twist-grip shifters on a flat handlebar ? i.e. as fitted to a lot of cheap MTBs and kids bikes in imitation of motorbike controls ? Or did you mean continuously-variable friction shifters on the down-tube (the tube going from the front of the bike down to the bottom-bracket area) ?
The pictures here should clarify my question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifter_(bicycle_part)

With regard to your specific question about the bottom-bracket. You will find that all but the entry level Shimano group-sets have moved to some form of external bottom-bracket which comes as two parts, left and right, each with its own bearing(you probably know that - sorry). My guess is that whatever you currently have is some sort of one-piece cartridge bottom bracket ? (assuming you can get the cranks off you should be confronted by a square tapered end to the axle on both sides). In theory and assuming you DO have an English threaded 68mm bottom bracket shell (the "shell" is just the bit of the frame that the bottom bracket fits into - on a steel bike it would have been manufactured as a separate part and then the tubes welded in to make the frame) - then a Tiagra or Sora external BB should fit your frame OK. Well that's the theory but there are a lot pitfalls to be aware of.

I was going to carry on and try and lay out the steps and (some of) the potential problems, but I quickly realised it was going to need an essay. Suffice to say fiddling with BBs and crank-sets is NOT a simple process and the older the bike the more difficult it will be. You'll need special tools to remove what you have and other tools to fit the new. Even then it is not guaranteed to work. You need to worry about whether the BB-shell end-faces are square and what chain-line you need for that particular combination of frame/drive-train. So before you go down that route I'd suggest you think carefully whether you really want to mess with the BB & crank-set.

A couple of things to check first are (1) does the BB feel rough ? (2) Get a mate to hold the bike (or just lean over the top-tube) and take of the both cranks - can you waggle the crank+axle assembly as a single piece inside the frame ? (There should be zero free play - if you feel something move make sure it is not just one crank that is loose - that is an easy fix). Older-style cartridge BBs have a reputation of lasting for ever (I had a cheap raleigh and the BB lasted > 20K).

If the BB is OK then have a look at the chain rings - how worn are they - are they "good enough" to get you through the winter ? (running with a worn chain-rings will increase chain-wear but it's a lot simpler to replace a chain than the alternatives you are contemplating. I know you wanted to swap to a compact double - but is it essential - for a bike you are only going to use for 6 months? Since you have not yet sourced the group-set you could just get a triple version. And if costs more then move down-market from Tiaga to Sora or even Claris (if you can find it 2nd hand).

If you really want to fiddle with the BB and crank-sets then I'd suggest some serious research first.
I learned a lot of what little I know from Sheldon Brown. His web-site is still maintained but it was always good for older bikes anyway as he owned plenty himself. There is a lot of good info there on older standards of BB and cranks sets. Have a read http://sheldonbrown.com/glossary-b.html

I know this post sounds a bit "negative" and I might come across as making things difficult. But I'm speaking from personal experience here - I've personally screwed up when changing BBs and crank-sets - it's a minefield. So walk carefully and good luck.

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pauls68 replied to Blue_Brevatto | 9 years ago
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Blue_Brevatto thanks for the very detailed and insightful response.

Yes I do mean twist grip and yes they are on drop bars. An odd combination I know.

Ok now for the embarrassing admission. After reading your post I took a closer look at the bike (that I've had for ten years and should probably have paid closer attention to) and found that er... well actually.... it's not a Raleigh after all! Duh! It's a piece of Taiwanese junk very similar to this but older: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vittesse-Sprint-21-Speed-Alloy-Racing/dp/B003DZ15CQ So apologies for being such a dimwit!

That said, it's still the only bike I have at the moment and I still want to upgrade the gearset. I know you'll probably say it's not worth it, but I plan to use this bike as an ongoing project, upgrading everything (including the frame) over time. So I will use it again next winter as well.

I take on board what you've said about BBs and I will certainly do some more research before I go ahead. Your comment about chain line is something I hadn't considered so I will look into that too. As regards the BB-shell end-faces being square, I had assumed (possibly naively) that they would be. Why wouldn't they?

You do have a point about keeping the existing crankset though, so I guess I could just replace the shifters and front and rear derailleurs and leave it at that for now?

Anyway, many thanks for your advice.

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MKultra | 9 years ago
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How old is your Vitesse as I suspect it's much more than 10 years old

Spec Varies dependent on age but most of the early 80's ones were well equipped for the time, Raleigh did turn out cheaper high tensile steel framed versions with very cheap 5 speed group sets, they are not worth upgrades but can serve as single speed or fixed conversions

A picture will help

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pauls68 replied to MKultra | 9 years ago
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Blimey! I'm pretty sure I bought it about 10 years ago, certainly no more than 12. It has 21 gears (3x7) with the old twist grip shifters, so was a pretty cheap one at the time. The frame is aluminium, but heavy compared to the modern aly framed bikes.

I may keep it as a project and keep upgrading bits and pieces, perhaps including a new frame at some point. But for now I just wanted something that changes gear cleanly and doesn't involve those horrible twist grip shifters

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Maggers | 9 years ago
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It's a Raleigh so I'd guess your old bracket is a British thread 68mm one. It should also be a normal width so you'll get away with a bog standard one from the groupset you're looking for. You'll need some odd looking tools to fit the new BB but other than that you should be bale to just unscrew the old one and put in a new one.

Alternatively if the chain rings are ok just keep the whole BB and crank set as is and change the other bits. It'll all be pretty compatable. Just need to check the rear mech has the range to accomodate the cassette/chain rings combination. I think you subtract the small from the big on each and add them together to get a number which the shimano mech will be rated for.

i.e. (52-39)+(28-12) = 29

from the sora range:
Short cage: 37 tooth total capacity, rear sprocket size range 11-32T
Med cage: 41 tooth total capacity, rear sprocket size range 11-32T

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pauls68 replied to Maggers | 9 years ago
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Maggers wrote:

It's a Raleigh so I'd guess your old bracket is a British thread 68mm one. It should also be a normal width so you'll get away with a bog standard one from the groupset you're looking for. You'll need some odd looking tools to fit the new BB but other than that you should be bale to just unscrew the old one and put in a new one.

Alternatively if the chain rings are ok just keep the whole BB and crank set as is and change the other bits. It'll all be pretty compatable. Just need to check the rear mech has the range to accomodate the cassette/chain rings combination. I think you subtract the small from the big on each and add them together to get a number which the shimano mech will be rated for.

i.e. (52-39)+(28-12) = 29

from the sora range:
Short cage: 37 tooth total capacity, rear sprocket size range 11-32T
Med cage: 41 tooth total capacity, rear sprocket size range 11-32T

Thats brilliant thanks very much for your help, that's a big help.

Only reason I want to replace the crankset is because I'm going from a triple to a compact double. It's very flat where I live so don't really need the "granny gears"

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