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Red light 'hoppers'

Not a new phenomenon, but it seems to be on the rise and very erksome. I am getting very sick of red-light hoppers, not jumpers. The fact is a lot of red-lights at main junctions can't be jumped because of crossing traffic and the very real chance of being squished. So I am riding to work and overtake another biker, but get to the next junction and stop at the light. Same biker comes cruising past and stops at the corner in front of me. Not looking at the light or the line but looking at the traffic to see if he/she can pull away as soon as there is a gap or they stop coming. They pull away and so do I but now I am stuck behind their slow moving ass. I can't overtake them because they are moving so slowly and overtaking cars are moving too quickly to move out and the road is too narrow, I am boxed in! I have no choice but to wait for the road to change or a gap in traffic. If I do get to move out a few hundred yards down the road I just get to the next set of lights and the whole maneuver repeats. Thankfully I can often put some distance between myself and them if I catch the end of a green.

I know this isn't a piece of etiquette anyone ever gets taught but if I get overtaken by another rider (this rarely but inevitably does occur) who then stops at the next lights I don't put myself in front of them. There are a lot of new people cycling, which is good, but by-heck some of them are knobs.

Feel free to criticize my don't-get-in-my-way/holier-than-thou attitude, or my use of run-on sentences.

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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38 comments

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Nick T | 9 years ago
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Can we get the thread back on topic please?

Here's my favourite. 550 grams.

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bikebot replied to Nick T | 9 years ago
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Nick T wrote:

Can we get the thread back on topic please?

Here's my favourite. 550 grams.

So that's the problem, bloody hipsters!

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Chuck | 9 years ago
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I don't really get why people feel the need to do this stuff. It mostly doesn't really get them anywhere as far as I can see.

I see a few people on my commute who seem desperate to get on the pavement to avoid lights or having to wait at junctions, even though it often saves them no time (because they have to pi$$ about with crossing the road they've just left on the pedestrian crossing) and often makes them worse off 100m down the road when they have to wait for a gap in traffic to rejoin. If they just wait at the lights in primary they'd be far better off.

EDIT: I also think justifications on safety grounds are mostly red herrings, although I accept there might be the odd case where it makes sense. I'd say all the examples I see are driven purely and simply by not wanting to wait, or wait behind cars.

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shay cycles | 9 years ago
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If you have taken primary position properly you can hold that position, controlling the following traffic whilst passing those slow starters and then allow traffic to pass - no need to look for gaps or to pull out to overtake them.

Biggest things though:

It's not a race
Not even with Strava
Crossing the stop line on red is an offence (calling it RLJ or hopping doesn't change that)
It isn't worth the rage
Swearing on public forums indicates significant rage and we don't much like that in drivers do we?

Cycling is supposed to be good for stress levels and it is if you avoid getting worked up with everyone else's behaviour.

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mrfree | 9 years ago
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I jump red lights (not all, but when it's safe). Traffic lights (and roads) are designed for cars these days. Cyclists are merely an afterthought, if even that.

When I'm in the Netherlands I obey all the road rules because it is efficient and works.

Here I feel like I'm being forced off the road by traffic, and rarely feel safe. In fact, one of the few times I feel safest is when I jump a red light and have the road to myself for a while. After all, traffic lights are about safety, are they not?

Until the government proportionally respects the wishes of cyclists against that of motor vehicles, and supplies proper infrastructure, I will not obey their one-sided laws.

Liberty.

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fukawitribe replied to mrfree | 9 years ago
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mrfree wrote:

Until the government proportionally respects the wishes of cyclists against that of motor vehicles, and supplies proper infrastructure, I will not obey their one-sided laws.

Liberty.

Stupidity.

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cavmem1 replied to mrfree | 9 years ago
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mrfree wrote:

I jump red lights (not all, but when it's safe). Traffic lights (and roads) are designed for cars these days. Cyclists are merely an afterthought, if even that.

When I'm in the Netherlands I obey all the road rules because it is efficient and works.

Here I feel like I'm being forced off the road by traffic, and rarely feel safe. In fact, one of the few times I feel safest is when I jump a red light and have the road to myself for a while. After all, traffic lights are about safety, are they not?

Until the government proportionally respects the wishes of cyclists against that of motor vehicles, and supplies proper infrastructure, I will not obey their one-sided laws.

Liberty.

So in the same argument does that mean it's ok for a driver to run you over because the laws being one sided mean you are an ' inconvenience ' to other people in their eyes?

So why is it you obey the laws of one nation but not another? Laws are laws they are to be complied with by all I am pretty sure there is no law that says " well mucka you only need to follow this one only if you feel like it". Traffic lights are designed to control the flow of traffic and not safety.

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mrfree replied to cavmem1 | 9 years ago
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Drivers do run cyclists over. And get away with it.

I thought I made myself clear. I'm of the opinion that law has little bearing on morals. Your right, there is no law that begins, 'well mucka'. But you can live you life perfectly within the law and still be a c*nt. It works both ways.

Your argument is that traffic lights are designed to control the flow of traffic? Well ok. How come when I stop at a red and there's no motorised vehicles around to make the sensor work, I have to sit at the light until a car turns up? Could it be that they are designed for motor vehicles?

I'm fed up of the complacency that cyclists are second to motor vehicles. Cyclists pay their equal share for the roads and don't get much in return.

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FluffyKittenofT... replied to cavmem1 | 9 years ago
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cavmem1 wrote:

So in the same argument does that mean it's ok for a driver to run you over because the laws being one sided mean you are an ' inconvenience ' to other people in their eyes?

So why is it you obey the laws of one nation but not another? Laws are laws they are to be complied with by all I am pretty sure there is no law that says " well mucka you only need to follow this one only if you feel like it". Traffic lights are designed to control the flow of traffic and not safety.

I'm not even defending RLJing (which I don't do), but your comment here lacks logic. For starters, you start off making an analogy with a safety issue (running people over) then finish by declaring its not about safety, but traffic flow. Those two points contradict each other.

And as for obeying the laws of one nation but not another - well, I was going to say something about that, but decided it went way off-topic, so I've deleted it!

It is true that traffic lights, like everything else on the road system, are designed around motorised traffic. But, personally, I don't think individually breaking the rules is the way to go, it just means you lose the moral high-ground while nothing really changes. I'm not going to defend a RLJing cyclist who gets nicked or injured doing it - you want to take the risk you accept the consequences.

But nor am I going to bang on tediously about other people with bikes doing it or invoke the 'giving us a bad name' crap (unless they do it while I'm crossing as a pedestrian, then I might have a go at that particular individual) - its just not the central issue.

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Stumps | 9 years ago
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Storm in a teacup.

Just forget about them and try not to get to wound up, its not worth it !

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OldRidgeback replied to Stumps | 9 years ago
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stumps wrote:

Storm in a teacup.

Just forget about them and try not to get to wound up, its not worth it !

+1, or if not buy a BMW and drive like a twunt
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levermonkey | 9 years ago
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If you cross the stop-line then you have jumped the red light. Whether you go on through the junction against the red light, or not, is immaterial.  19

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Argos74 | 9 years ago
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If the ASL box is unoccupied and there's a small group of cyclists, I generally take the primary and let people zoom off on the nearside, while I ease out in the primary. Blocks the left hook in its tracks, and slows me down a bit.

But after seeing two very close shaves from left hooks recently (including this morning, blackhatchbackman, the next one may not have disc brakes you miserable bumbduckcunglefunt), it's so worth it.

Some of the more blatant RLJers and Pavement Hoppers. There's only one sane rational response. Burn 'em, drop 'em hard. And freewheel past 'em singing some of the lyrics from Disco Inferno.

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PhilRuss | 9 years ago
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[[[[[ Yeah but no but...has anybody tried queuing, politely, at a bus stop any time in the last 20 years? You're 3rd in line, the bus arrives---you're suddenly 13th.
Do we expect cyclists--or people on bikes--to behave any better? The words "rat" and "race" occur to one, and it will only get worse. Try not to get wound up, I tell myself.
P.R.

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bikebot | 9 years ago
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I'd recommend keeping a couple of elastic bands in your jersey pocket, but practice your innocent face first.

Oh, and make sure you're not the only one waiting at the line. That would be a bit of a giveaway  4

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Scoob_84 | 9 years ago
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I'm with bikeboy here - It's annoying. You overtake a wobbler and arrive at the red lights before them, you take most advanced position available making sure there's plenty of space behind you in the bike box, only to find that same person you just overtook rolls through the empty bike box and through the red and stop a few meters ahead of the line (technically this is going through a red) and stopping in the middle of the road. When the light turns green, said person wobbles off slowly getting in everyone way only for them to all have to over take them again.....and breath

If anything its just bad manners. Wait behind the line like everyone else.

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Scoob_84 | 9 years ago
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I'm with bikeboy here - It's annoying. You overtake a wobbler and arrive at the red lights before them, you take most advanced position available making sure there's plenty of space behind you in the bike box, only to find that same person you just overtook rolls through the empty bike box and through the red and stop a few meters ahead of the line (technically this is going through a red) and stopping in the middle of the road. When the light turns green, said person wobbles off slowly getting in everyone way only for them to all have to over take them again.....and breath

If anything its just bad manners. Wait behind the line like everyone else.

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surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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Is it OK to criticise you for misspelling irksome?

I do this all the time (roll past people who have stopped at the back of/in the ASL "box"). I think it has become a habit because I tend to commute at a time when the ASL box looks like a scrum and most of the people on my commute - especially the ones on bicycles - make me feel nervous for my personal safety so I want to get away from them as quickly as possible. I don't recall having any complaints but then I don't hang around to take views from other road users, so maybe there's a whole crowd of aggrieved individuals behind me.

My strong advice would be to drop the self righteous adherence to a pointless rule and get as far forward as you can at intersections. Or was the point of your of your "question" to explain just how much quicker you are than everyone else?

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Jack Osbourne snr replied to surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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surly_by_name wrote:

Is it OK to criticise you for misspelling irksome?

I do this all the time (roll past people who have stopped at the back of/in the ASL "box"). I think it has become a habit because I tend to commute at a time when the ASL box looks like a scrum and most of the people on my commute - especially the ones on bicycles - make me feel nervous for my personal safety so I want to get away from them as quickly as possible. I don't recall having any complaints but then I don't hang around to take views from other road users, so maybe there's a whole crowd of aggrieved individuals behind me.

My strong advice would be to drop the self righteous adherence to a pointless rule and get as far forward as you can at intersections. Or was the point of your of your "question" to explain just how much quicker you are than everyone else?

You, as a faster rider, rolling past others in an ASL "scrum" is an entirely different scenario.

Your encouragement to others to break the law on "safety" grounds is also questionable.

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KiwiMike | 9 years ago
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"at the next set of lights i set off as fast as possible and damn near cleared him out with a shout of 'hold you f£$king line'...he seemed to get it then"

...just...er...wow.

This was a *public* road, right?

For god's sake don't let the Daily Mail see this thread.

(steps away)

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Jack Osbourne snr | 9 years ago
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Step away from the thread, people. Step away from the thread.

There's a lot of knicker-twisting going on here, so why doesnt everybody just go read something else for 10 minutes?

That'll give the rest of us time to try to understand why there's so much knicker-twisting going on.

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md6 | 9 years ago
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I have had similar and think that there is a basic ettiquette issue. If you want to go to the front of a crown of waiting bikes, do it. But don't then block the bloody way because you want to amble along at 10 mph. If you are in a hurry and want to ride off quickly, fine, otherwise stop being a c**t and wait you turn.

There was one guy on my old commute who regularly combined rolling just a bike length through the stop line and then as the lights turned green and everyone went he would veer left back across the path of all the people he just hopped past at the light. We had some words after he did it a 4th time in the same morning on one stretch of road. He didn't seem to understand what was wrong or unsafe about that...so at the next set of lights i set off as fast as possible and damn near cleared him out with a shout of 'hold you f£$king line'...he seemed to get it then.

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FluffyKittenofT... | 9 years ago
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I don't understand the description of the problem.

If you don't want anyone stopping in front of you why not just stop just behind the forward-most stop-line? I presume you aren't saying you stop right at the back of the ASL and then object to anyone else entering it, but I don't understand what you are saying is the problem.

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oozaveared replied to FluffyKittenofTindalos | 9 years ago
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FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I don't understand the description of the problem.

If you don't want anyone stopping in front of you why not just stop just behind the forward-most stop-line? I presume you aren't saying you stop right at the back of the ASL and then object to anyone else entering it, but I don't understand what you are saying is the problem.

I think the problem is that sometimes some slower cyclists make their way to the front ie in front of cyclists that are already waiting. In this case placing themselves in front of a cyclist that has already overtaken them and whom they know is likely to cycle more quickly than they do. In so doing they are trapping other cyclists behind them in moving traffic. It's a common courtesy thing that probably most sensible people wouldn't do.

I can suggest several courses of action but am not prepared to write them down on a public blog. One I am prepared to offer is to stop them passing you in the first place firstly by bike position or failing that by verbal prediction. By which I mean predicting that the effects of karma are strong in that location they may find themselves blocked in or treated discourteously by another cyclist one day. Maybe today. Maybe soon.

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Leviathan replied to FluffyKittenofTindalos | 9 years ago
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FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I don't understand the description of the problem.

If you don't want anyone stopping in front of you why not just stop just behind the forward-most stop-line? I presume you aren't saying you stop right at the back of the ASL and then object to anyone else entering it, but I don't understand what you are saying is the problem.

Have you been reading KiwiMike's muddled posts because it is pretty obvious what I am talking about. Nowhere does it say I am stopping in the wrong place. I am at the forwardmost line. I am talking about people weaving around you and stopping ahead of the lights [which FYI is nothing to do with adopting a legal primary position, Mike]
If you don't know what I am talking about you must be one of them.  29

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FluffyKittenofT... replied to Leviathan | 9 years ago
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bikeboy76 wrote:

If you don't know what I am talking about you must be one of them.  29

Bit presumptious there.

Its simply because you didn't make clear you were talking about those who go beyond the stop line. Breaking the rules (indeed, the law) in order to get in front of cyclists already there and who are obeying the rules is inconsiderate, I agree. I was just thinking If you aren't at the front of the ASL then you can't object to others using the available space. If you are, then fair enough, its just that the law already agrees with you.

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Scoob_84 | 9 years ago
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The argument I can't fathom the most is its ok to jump red lights as I'm not a danger to anyone else.

What about the physical and emotional damage you end up causing to the car and driver that may hi you off your bike because you were too impatient to wait for a green light?

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Shades | 9 years ago
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Winds me up but I've taught myself to 'rise above it'. Not a red light but stopped at a zebra crossing today as a large group of people were crossing. Another cyclist just slowed down and weaved through them. Felt like giving him a 'Do you know why people moan about cyclists' lecture but just let it go.

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KiwiMike | 9 years ago
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Hint: they're on a bike.

Bikes are just faster shoes.

There is no club.

There is no membership.

There is no obligation.

A British societal norm is not to jump a queue, but in this case there is also no queue.

You are tilting at windmills. Which is perfectly within your right, of course.

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Leviathan replied to KiwiMike | 9 years ago
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KiwiMike wrote:

A British societal norm is not to jump a queue, but in this case there is also no queue.

queue
kjuː/Submit
noun
1.
BRIT.
a line or sequence of people or vehicles awaiting their turn to be attended to or to proceed.
synonyms: line, row, column, file, chain, string, stream;

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