Deep Breath Everyone

northstar wrote:

There has been cheating and you are the one that needs to "get over yourself", you and others are the problem here.

That is not your decision to make, i will keep on until it is reversed.

Well you can keep on if you want, I'm happy for it to be reversed, because I did it as a test to see how scores compare if you were to get loads of breakaway riders. I will score more if it was to be changed.

But it wont and will never be reversed, so you are using time and effort for nothing.

Gkam84 wrote:

northstar wrote:

There has been cheating and you are the one that needs to "get over yourself", you and others are the problem here.

That is not your decision to make, i will keep on until it is reversed.

Well you can keep on if you want, I'm happy for it to be reversed, because I did it as a test to see how scores compare if you were to get loads of breakaway riders. I will score more if it was to be changed.

But it wont and will never be reversed, so you are using time and effort for nothing.

No you didn't, you were allowed to cheat and did so willingly.

I beg to differ : ).

northstar wrote:

... your pathetic attempts won't work.

But they're fun!

Anyways, even though I agree the points were 'ill-gotten', so to speak, because they were gotten with information that was not published nor made known to everyone nor was it the intention of the competition organizer that the competition be held with that type of an advantage available to some users, namely those that are checking the deadline and see they can select some riders without the general knowledge of the rest of the game participants, I just honestly believe Dave will not go back on his decision. And it's a tough decision to make. He's opting for taking on the responsibility of acknowledging that the deadline error should have been avoided.

But let me tell you. I fully agree it was a 'deceptive' way of getting points. But who am I to point out what's 'deceptive' and what's not? Fair point, I agree. So read on at your discretion...

Not that I mind what happened, I'm ok with it. So what? I sure don't think it's a criminal act, but, when I think about this, I think about insider trading in financial markets, when certain information is made available to select buyers or sellers but not to the general trading public.

It seems to me this is almost the same thing.

Wig Billy, Ray and Gkam noticed, but only Gkam, if I'm not mistaken, announced his selections on the forum. Was it wrong? I don't think so, not necessarily. I think in Gkam's case, at least, it was all for a bit of fun, knowing full well some people would take it in stride, but, obviously, not expecting this backlash. I don't think Gkam meant to cheat, per se. It's a shame, because I think he never imagined anyone would see it as 'cheating' but, sometimes we don't think things through and if you're of the mindset that it was 'cheating', who am I to try to dissuade you otherwise?

Still, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the majority of the users were not aware that the deadline was permitting the selection of the breakaway riders and I do believe that, if polled, most users would agree that choosing those riders for your team is not part of the scope of the intention of the game. It is extremely obvious to any player that most of the time, getting a person in a breakaway is half luck, half an art, but, obviously, the game was not set up to be played with the knowledge of what riders are in the breakaway, I mean why have a deadline, then? So, it's easy to see your point that the intended deadline was not respected...

So, basically, I agree the points were 'ill-gotten', but I don't think Dave is in the business of chastizing people. But I'm pretty certain that had this happened in the financial markets, well, it would have been a matter of time before you had the SEC, here in the USA, knocking on your door, they probably would have investigated, leveled charges of criminal securities fraud or something, handed out a few fines, voided some transactions, forced the firm to make financial restitution, if possible, to any affected clients and definitely made sure no one profited from 'insider' information

Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic, but fun, fun, fun!

mooleur wrote:

...you don't get out much, do you?

And you only seem to post to have a dig at people ....do you get out much?

Seriously if ppl have nothing to add to the debate why post here? Just my 2p

Enrique has made some valid observations i'n regards to insider trading , not my thoughts but his comments have been thought provoking in themselves

chiv30 wrote:

mooleur wrote:

...you don't get out much, do you?

And you only seem to post to have a dig at people ....do you get out much?

Seriously if ppl have nothing to add to the debate why post here? Just my 2p

Enrique has made some valid observations i'n regards to insider trading , not my thoughts but his comments have been thought provoking in themselves

I'm not the one who's not been adding to the debate! I think you'll find quite early on I'd given quite fair points on the matter. The guys who work hard to make the fantasy football possible have been enduring an absolute tirade of abuse, with absolutely no outlet.

And excuse me, but my one or two ironic "digs" at people in one post hardly count as a citation of "only ever posting to have a dig" to be fair. Come on.

Dave, drheaton and Gkam have both given very thorough explanations yet your friend Mr Northstar amongst others here keep digging, and digging, and digging with seemingly no reference to having read any response made to his questions.

If it's getting to taking digs to stop this ridiculous farce of a thread getting any more personal, then so be it, because it's really taking the bloody biscuit now. These guys are doing this off their own back for crying out loud.

Like Dave said, if you're not happy, take your money back, no ones forcing you to have to put up with whatever has gone on - which, by the way, has been explained time and time again.

northstar wrote:

When is the cheating going to be reversed?

northstar wrote:

When is the cheating going to be reversed?

tincox wrote:

This is still going?

I thought after Godwin's Law was invoked you could/should shut the thread?

If you understand Godwins law then you will recognise invoking it to be used as a form of censorship actually nullifies itself

As for mooleur and her comments on having a dig .....solely commenting after making an observation over the last few weeks although I won't be re-quoting her digs , also coming back to have a dig isn't constructive to either side of the argument

My questions have been answered by Gkam but if I feel the need to post here as the debate continues then I will if it adds to it or defends a previous post of my own

Think that covers what I've missed whilst working this morning

northstar wrote:

So when is the cheating going to reversed?

i refer you to my reply in the first thread. it's right at the bottom.

Dave Atkinson wrote:

i should never have closed the first thread, this had been *so* constructive.

As I keep saying it's got people using the forum

enrique wrote:

...nor was it the intention of the competition organizer that the competition be held with that type of an advantage available to some users...

northstar wrote:

I beg to differ.

I am in a marked disagreement from your assertion. I, myself, beg to differ as well...

How shall I put this?..

Ok, let's take the investment analogy just a little bit further, if you will...

Let's suppose there's a financial investment firm called Road.cc.

Now let's suppose Road.cc has an office boy whom we shall call Mr. Gregory Campbell Now, mind you, Mr. Gregory Campbell is not an employee of the company, he's just an ordinary office boy who helps out at the office, organizes the inventory, takes out the trash and gets to hang out at the office. One of the perks of being an office boy at Road.cc is that Mr. Campbell gets to play with the office computers and hang around the traders, which, of course, he is very proud of! His dream, of course, as well as mine, is to one day, be one of those traders! I digress...

At any rate, one day Mr. Campbell is at one of the computers when he realizes that the window to conduct trades on the company computer network has not closed, which is strange, because the normal trading hours are, usually, from 9:00am to 5:00pm. Of course, you can place an order 24 hours a day, but the actual trades have to occur between the hours of 9:00am to 5:00pm because of some silly financial institution regulations with which Mr. Campbell is not very familiar with nor interested in, .

While he's at the office, the news are on the television and the anchor for the Financial News Program discusses a new company called Catalunya Breakaway and reveals that this company intends to compete in their market with a stated strategy of getting their products to market faster than their competition!

Now Mr. Campbell thinks to himself 'What a grand opportunity!'. The trading window is still open! I stand to make a killing!' He then proceeds to invest his own assets in Catalunya Breakaway in hopes of making a killing in a currency known as 'Fantasy Cycling Points', which, apparently, are very valuable in certain parts of the world!

Then, in a fit of pride and exuberance at his feat, Mr. Campbell decides to post his triumphant and excellent transaction to the company bulletin board, , 'I have invested in the 'Catalunya Breakaway Company'!'

Firm clients respond 'How? I thought trading windows were closed at this time?' to which Mr. Campbell responds, 'Nay, not so, there was apparently an error in the server clocks and the trading window was still open!'

Of course, firm clients are upset! Some believe 'Waitaminnut! I missed out on an opportunity to make a killing myself (!)!', 'I, too, should have and would (!) have invested in Catalunya Breakaway if I'd had the chance (!)!'

Where do we go from here?...

Well, let's take the analogy a little further...

If Road.cc were truly an investment company several things could happen...

First, when the office managers found out what Mr. Campbell did, they would have to decide how to manage the situation.

Then, if they were truly a professional financial services company, and they were thinking of their relationship with their clients they might realize 'Wow. Some of my clients might be upset at the way we manage our business!'

If it were truly a professional investment firm, they might have to conduct an investigation and, of course, deal with their clients inquiries as to how this happened, whether the trades will stand, and deal with their now persistent doubts as to why would an office boy be potentially 'playing around with the company network', and their doubts, did (?) the office boy tamper with the server clock or was this a programming oversight?... why does an office boy, an unpaid employee, have access to the firm's computer network, other doubts like, 'are my funds safe with this office boy around?' ... and 'who am I trusting with my funds?'... 'what kind of a firm is this?' ... 'who are (?) these people?', etc..

Bear with me... I have to laugh out loud for a minnut!

Let us continue!

At any rate!... In the real world I can imagine several scenarios...

In one, the firm puts out a public relations communication distancing their firm from the office boy... 'We discovered that Mr. Campbell placed some trades whereupon he traded his own assets to make an investment in Catalunya Breakaway... The trades were, we acknowledge, effected after normal hours of operation... blah, blah, blah...'

There may have been a news conference and during the news conference Road.cc maybe would have said something like 'The balance of our clients' accounts were not affected. The gains made by Mr. Campbell in his transaction did not affect our clients, etc...'

But, well, how shall I put this?

Well, this isn't (!) a professional financial investment company, so (!) as a private company, well, Road.cc, well, can manage its business as they please (!)...

They can, as they have:

1. Offer an explanation:

Dave Atkinson wrote:

... it's not ideal that the deadline was after the start....We try not to make mistakes, but sometimes we make mistakes.

2. Clarify the firm's stance on the 'out-of the ordinary' trades. In this case, state that they will not void the trades placed on Catalunya Breakaway, in spite of the trades having been conducted outside normal trading window hours. After all, the trading hours in this industry are not (!) regulated or monitored, mind you... though maybe they should (!)

Dave Atkinson wrote:

... [W]e won't be docking any points for the stage. [We consider that]No rules were broken....

3. Offer an apology:

Dave Atkinson wrote:

... [A]pologies for the mix up....Sorry.

4. Offer a refund:

Dave Atkinson wrote:

... I'll be happy to refund your £10...

Now I can imagine that in many an office the office boy would be brought in, and, maybe, talked to... I can imagine someone saying 'Mr. Campbell, we like you very much, and you're very loyal to the firm and are excellent, I say, at removing the trash and organizing our stock room, however, you must understand that our clients view you as part of our firm and that therefore, should you continue to utilize our computer network, we expect a different behavior from you...'

Well then, what then about the accounts of other clients, or traders, that noticed that the window had not closed because of a system clock error yet failed to act and place trades, be it for moral reasons, total disinterest or ignorance, or lack of an aggressive 'killer instnct' ? Well, in the real world, those trades would be nullified... But of course, which is of little consequence, you could still trade in Catalunya Break during the next day's trading, but (!) most of us know that that information would probably be useless by then

Anyways... Whew! That was fun!... Anyways... Who am I to bring all this to light, huh? Just a fan who loves the game... But, I'll tell you the truth... If I was Dave, what would I do? Probably what he did, probably. This is game, after all.

But if this were a financial investment company, I'd escort the office boy out of the office, or at least suspend him, and I'd get rid of my clients that took full advantage of the system error... I just wouldn't want clients like that... they make my other clients feel uneasy... But, crap *tongue in cheek* there's a huge (!) difference between running an investment firm and running a fantasy Cycling site... and in my mind, well, this is a well run site... Given all that, I admire your persistence and courage in the face of these of these insurmountable odds and joyfully await, please do not disappoint me, your coming response:

northstar wrote:

When is the cheating going to be reversed?

I have to admit. You're my kind of guy!