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Hi All,

Just signed up to the forum as looking for bit more info, guidance and help on road cycling.

I've never owned a road bike, up until now its been mountain bike, but still not a huge amount of experience on that either.

I'm looking to start road cycling, mainly for fitness, but dont know much about it.

Ideally looking at a decent but not hugely expensive bike which would suit a beginner and also suit me as I begin to improve get used to it.

I've got a Giant Trance mountain bike, which has been really good so was looking at the Giant road bikes, but someone also suggested Merida. My friends just got into road cycling and he got a good deal on a second hand specialized tarmac.

Does anyone have any tips, thoughts or opinions as to what I should be looking for and also anything to watch out or consider?

I'm 5ft8, so not even sure what size of bike I'd be looking at.

Other than the obvious helmet and padded shorts is there much else I'd need to factor in on starting out costs?

Thanks in advance,

Hamish

32 comments

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arfa [747 posts] 2 years ago
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Welcome and prepare to lighten the load in your wallet.
For what it's worth, giant make fine road bikes but I don't know much about merida.
The key factors are fit and geometry - I would not advise buying a first road bike over the internet and I would get yourself down to your local bike shop (LBS) and ask their advice. If it is a Halfords look a little harder - nothing wrong with Boardman bikes (also fine bikes) but you are very unlikely to find enough experience on the shop floor....
So before you go there, have a think about what kind of riding you will want to do e.g. punchy sprinting or long rides touring the back and beyond. This is where geometry matters as out and out racers will have you flatter on the bike, whereas long distance routers will be a little more upright and comfortable. E.g.
your mate who bought the tarmac has got a punchy racing frame whereas I ride a Roubaix which is more relaxed etc.
You don't give a budget which is key in determining what is realistic.
In my opinion, if you want a carbon frame, you probably need to spend £1,500 to get a decent groupset on it - no point putting a skoda engine on a Ferrari chassis. I am a fan of carbon frames as I think they are lighter and absorb a lot of the vibration from our oh so wonderful roads. However, have a prang on one and you probably have to write off the frame , whereas the same is not necessarily true of aluminium.
I also ride aluminium, a felt f series as my winter/commuter bike and can recommend them too.
So in terms of groupset, I wouldn't buy a bike with a lesser groupset then tiagra on it and you will them pay more for 105 (highly recommended as value for money), ultegra then Dura ace (if you have money to burn). I'm afraid I can't offer much up on FSA & campagnola groupsets.
So what to do ? if you have a local giant dealer, have a look there and see if you can test ride bikes. I think Evans do this for some models and I know specialized stores do this as well.
What others to look at. Well if you are considering aluminium then cannondale make some very light quality frames so give them a butchers.
Also I'd consider trek, canyon (but I think they're mostly online sales) specialized, felt, focus as well as other brands mentioned before.
One factor to think about is after sales. You will undoubtedly need some skilled work done on your bike as miles rack up and parts need replacing. I'd make sure that you can get this done locally as a priority or else it can be a right pain.
I learnt this the hard way last year, even after buying my Roubaix from a large retailer, after I had a prang, I took it back to them and they failed to get a new frame in 6 weeks. I then went to a specialized store and I was back on the road two days later as they had stock to replace the frame.
As for kit, I am a believer in wear what you like. However, if you're a fan of baggy mtb style clothing you will find yourself slowed down by it....
You will also find that wearing team kit (especially sky) divides opinions somewhat....
If you need kit, have a look here www.cycle-clothes.co.uk
I would recommend the tenn bib shorts as you will make friends in a new cycling club more readily if everyone doesn't have to stare at a brickie's crack when you are taking your turn at the front  3
I would also recommend a pair of fingerless gloves (help absorb vibration/protect hands if you come off) and a gilet and packable rain coat.
Anyway, that's enough for starters from me, good luck and I am sure others will be along to share their thoughts.

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Gkam84 [9086 posts] 2 years ago
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Hello and welcome.

At 5ft8 you'd be look at anything from 51cm right up to 55cm, depending on the brand. The best thing to do is go and try bikes at a shop, get the fit right.

Are you using clipless shoes and pedals for mountain biking or just flat pedals?

If you are using flat, that is ok on the road for a while, but you might want to look at going clipless, it is much more efficient.

The three brands you name, Giant, Specialized and Merida all make good bikes. Giant do make particularly good starter bikes because the have decent specification at a good price.

Helmet, you can still wear your MTB helmet, unless its a full face job. Padded shorts or bibs are always a good idea, need some sort of padding down there.

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MartyMcCann [236 posts] 2 years ago
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When I got back onto road bikes about 2 1/2 years ago I got a Specialized Allez 16 for around £500 in a sale. Last year's version is still about in some places for that price, and the 2014 model is around £600. It has served me well and I have no intention of replacing it - I might upgrade from the Shimano 2300 group set in the next few months to 105 or something, but even that is not really a necessity-for my kind of riding I have never really needed more than the 16 gears. I have put decent miles into it as well as quite a few sportives around 80 miles at at time , hilly and flat terrain and it has been comfortable and I've had no major mechanical issues (although I am quite religious about cleaning and lubing it after every few dry or every single wet and mucky ride). I went to a local bike shop to buy it and that meant I had the proper size (I'm 5ft 9, about 100kg, and the 54cm frame was the best fit-if I had just done it on-line I would have picked a 56cm based on my measurements, which when I tried it out in the store proved to be a bit too big).
The aluminium frame means I have no probs using it all year round-the only changes I made were to the original tyres, a new chain a few weeks ago and SPD-SL pedals. I had the bike about 2 months before going for the clipless pedals so it wasn't an outlay that was needed at the start.
You should think about what sort of riding you are going to be doing obviously but I think there is no big rush to go carbon, particularly as a first bike. I am in no hurry to upgrade my Allez and am currently doing 80 miles a week at least. At the last club run a couple arrived with their carbon wonders that were at least 3 times more expensive than mine but they found it tough going- so despite all the stuff you will hear about weight, stiffness etc the frame material and groupset are only as good as the person pushing the pedals!

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Yorkiechan [36 posts] 2 years ago
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Hi Hamish

I would strongly recommend visiting a few bike shops if they are available to you.
A good LBS can give you valuable assistance and some even throw in bike fits when you spend a certain amount of dough on a new bike.
If you can get the hang of clipless pedals you will never go back...when you can pull up on the pedal when going uphill it makes life so much easier and makes you get up the hill faster.
As far as clothing goes try some on while you are there..for instance I take a large in Endura and Morvelo bib shorts but an XL in Castelli (those skinny Italians).
If you are going to buy the shorts you may as well look at the jerseys too as they have handy pockets at the back for sticking stuff in.
Personally It doesn't really matter if you go for a carbon frame or an aluminum one...yes the carbon does reduce some of the shocks from the road, but a good alu frame with carbon forks and a carbon seat post (which you can add later) do just as good a job.
The main thing is to get the right frame and size for the type of riding you want to do.
Get that sorted and you will be lapping up the miles and doing club rides and sportives before you know it.
Which brings me to cycling clubs...Find out which ones are near you and go along and chat to them as their advice will be invaluable.
Welcome to the world of road riding may you ride long and prosper ..

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Martyn_K [185 posts] 2 years ago
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I used to ride MTB and got fed up with having to travel to find decent trails, so i moved to road cycling. After all i have a road right out side my house!

I used the cycle to work scheme to buy my first road bike. It's not the best option for everyone but might be worth you researching it if your employer is involved in the scheme.

If you have cash ready to spend then i would personally take a chunk out of it for some accessories. Lets use a ball park figure of £1000 to spend, keep £200-£250 for bike bits and £750 for the bike.

If you are no bothered about new then it's always worth going to your Local Bike Shop and seeing if they have anything second hand. You will be surprised at what people part exchange when buying new, and obviously your chance of getting a better spec bike for the money are slightly higher.

You will need to decide what pedal system you want to buy in to. Honestly, you should not be fearful of clipless pedals. After a few rides it will be second nature so get some from the start. You do not need to spend the earth either on pedals or shoes. Look Keo compatible pedals from Exustar are about £20 on amazon, i use them on my winter bike. DHB (wiggle.co.uk) entry level shoes are good value.

DHB also do some good value bib shorts and jerseys that are more than good enough to get you started.

You may already have a helmet from being on the MTB, this will serve you well. But make sure you get a pair of sunglasses, protecting the eyes from road spray and bugs is important now you could be travelling a bit faster.

Don't get hung up on what material your bike is made from. Alu frames are fantastic and can be had at a good price. Carbon may be for a future purchase should you get the bug.

The most important advice i can tell you is to fully research, shop around and listen to quite a few opinions. Buy once, buy right and there should be no excuse to not love you new bike and equipment.

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HamishB [5 posts] 2 years ago
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Hey everyone, just logged on on my phone to check the replies.

Seriously, thanks very much to you all for taking the time out to give such full replies. Really appreciated.

Difficult to reply properly on my phone just now but soon man as I'm at the computer I'll get a proper reply done.

Unfortunately for you I now have a few more questions haha!

Itching to get sorted on a bike/gear so feel lot happier now knowing there's some really helpful people on here for advice.

Thanks again, look forward to discussing more.

Cheers,

H

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Flying Scot [918 posts] 2 years ago
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It's definitely worth a look in your local Decathlon if you have one, ride a few round the shop to get a feel.

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Miles253 [198 posts] 2 years ago
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I think for a first bike, you should consider a second hand aluminium bike. Speaking from experience you get a lot of bang for your buck. The downside is that you won't have the support of the staff at an lbs, but depending on your lbs that might not be a bad thing. Failing that and if you would feel more comfortable buying at an lbs, try and go for a deal from last year. Ior the year before, great deals to bed had. I would recommend aluminium for the durability, I've crashed mine, given quite mildly, and it's fine, as mentioned earlier carbon is done after a single fall.

Set yourself a budget, cycle to work is great, get stuck in!

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Singletrack [17 posts] 2 years ago
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@ arfa:

Interested in your link to the cycle-clothes site, I need some affordable commutting kit. Just wondered if you or anyone else here had used the Tenn products? They look cheap and reasonably cheerful, but I wondered if anyone had used them? Thanks.

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arfa [747 posts] 2 years ago
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I use their bib shorts and the rain jacket - very happy with them. I also have the shower proof trousers which are pretty good in grim conditions.
I have always had rapid service from the website too.

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arfa [747 posts] 2 years ago
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I use their bib shorts and the rain jacket - very happy with them. I also have the shower proof trousers which are pretty good in grim conditions.
I have always had rapid service from the website too.

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S13SFC [134 posts] 2 years ago
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I'll leave others to debate brands/materials/groupsets but the one thing I will say is don't be afraid of clipless. After a couple of rides you'll be fine and be wondering how people ride without them.

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HamishB [5 posts] 2 years ago
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Morning All,

Thanks again for all your help.

I am actually very unsure about clipless pedals, never liked the thought of them, but everyone, including you guys/girls have said how good they are so I think i'd be best to give them a try.

Is there different 'options' types or is it only 1 type of clipless pedals? If more than one type, what would be the easiest/most popular/safest to get used to please?

Take on board the aluminium bike thoughts in case of crashes, I hadnt factored that in, someone had said, go carbon. I'll look at a decent aluminium one too though now with carbon forks.

Out of curiosity, I noticed a few of you refer to crashing... is it pretty common to be ending up off the bike?

I've always thought road bikes looked quite tricky to ride/handle, do they take quite a lot of getting used to?

My main reason for road cycling would be endurance, increase fitness stamina so thanks for mentioning there are bikes more suited to this.

I do like the look of Specialized and Giant.

On the groupsets etc, what are the different levels and what do you think is a good starting level for that? I've only really heard of Shimano, but take it there are others? Ideally looking for a set thats reliable, sturdy, replacements easily available and will do me as I improve?

Sorry to come back with a load of questions, but thanks... I'd like to go into my LBS armed with a little knowledge while I get sized up. Not against an ex demo or even a bike that is new but previous year or two model if it helps get a better specc'd bike for the price.

Cheers all,

Hamish  1

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HamishB [5 posts] 2 years ago
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sorry again,

does anyone have any help on how to identify if a road bike is more suited to touring as opposed to racing as per arfa's commets about tarmac vs roubaix please?

what would you say would be models of Specialized, Giant and Merida to look at in Alu or Carbon frames with a more relaxed frame style?

Guess it'll take me some time to get used to being in that position on a bike then if I want to go more racey in the future I can?

Cheers,

H

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David Arthur @d... [693 posts] 2 years ago
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This guide to buying your first road bike is worth a read Hamish http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/63013-roadcc-buying-basics-buying-yo...

You want to decide how much you want to spend, then look at bikes that fit that budget. A good place to start is a decent bike shop, where you can narrow your choice down to a couple of bikes that fit your budget.

Don't worry about clipless pedals if you're just starting out, trainers and regular flat pedals will be just fine while you get used to riding the road bike. Then, as you get more into road cycling, you can look to invest in clipless pedals and shoes that suit your style of riding

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MartyMcCann [236 posts] 2 years ago
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HamishB wrote:

Morning All,

Thanks again for all your help.

I am actually very unsure about clipless pedals, never liked the thought of them, but everyone, including you guys/girls have said how good they are so I think i'd be best to give them a try.

Is there different 'options' types or is it only 1 type of clipless pedals? If more than one type, what would be the easiest/most popular/safest to get used to please?

Take on board the aluminium bike thoughts in case of crashes, I hadnt factored that in, someone had said, go carbon. I'll look at a decent aluminium one too though now with carbon forks.

Out of curiosity, I noticed a few of you refer to crashing... is it pretty common to be ending up off the bike?

I've always thought road bikes looked quite tricky to ride/handle, do they take quite a lot of getting used to?

My main reason for road cycling would be endurance, increase fitness stamina so thanks for mentioning there are bikes more suited to this.

I do like the look of Specialized and Giant.

On the groupsets etc, what are the different levels and what do you think is a good starting level for that? I've only really heard of Shimano, but take it there are others? Ideally looking for a set thats reliable, sturdy, replacements easily available and will do me as I improve?

Sorry to come back with a load of questions, but thanks... I'd like to go into my LBS armed with a little knowledge while I get sized up. Not against an ex demo or even a bike that is new but previous year or two model if it helps get a better specc'd bike for the price.

Cheers all,

Hamish  1

There are different types of clipless pedals-for example Shimano make SPD and SPD-SLs. While SPD are normally thought of as mountain bike pedals many roadies use them as well since they are much easier to walk around in as opposed to the SPD-SLs which have a larger cleat and make walking a bit more of a challenge. The pros and cons of SPD vs SPD-SL are a well worn topic and really depends on what type of riding you do- I use SPD-SLs on my road bike and SPDs on my mountain bike since the type I have are flat on one side and have a clip on the other meaning I don't have to change shoes if I am just heading out to the shops on my MTB.
Outside of Shimano there are also pedals and clipless systems from the likes of Speedplay and Look as well as others- all have their own disciples and the cleats fromn one type will not work with another- generally though if I was going to advise you I would say go for the SPD but check this out just to be sure.

As for crashing-it depends on where you are riding, how you do it and what the roads are like. I've had one spill in the past couple of years but it was shall we say a "unique" situation! To be honest people who are afraid of coming off are more likely to since they tend to ride more tensed up and are less able to react quickly. You do get used to riding a road bike very quickly-it is always a pleasant suprise when you realise just how much quicker and lighter they are from an MTB-it is very noticable!

As for groupsets- again opinions differ but the major ones are Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo. Each will have their own preference and the group set will make up a fair chunk of the price of the bike you end up with. Each brand has different ranges- for Shimano bottom/entry level used to be 2300 (which is what I am still running) but there are now Tourney and another one which havbe been recently introduced at a lower level. Above that you will have 105, Sora, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura-Ace (maybe not in that order but you get the idea) and Di2 (the electronic version)- that is why you may see a price difference between bikes that appear to be the same. SRAM and Campagnolo also have similar levels. Again your budget and what you want to get out of your riding will help you decide what groupset to go for. I still run 2300 but hope to upgrade in the next few months depending on whether I still have a job or not- it has been grand for my riding and while maybe not as smooth as the higher end stuff, I'm not climbing Mount Ventoux or challenging Cav or Kittel in a sprint.

Don't forget as well that wheels can make a big difference to a bike-often the standard set you get with it when you first buy the bike are grand, but many people do move on to get lighter and better ones but again that is not a priority when starting out.

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JohnnyRemo [149 posts] 2 years ago
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My advice for a newcomer would be unless you have a lot of disposable income to look for a second-hand bike to see how you like it first.

If sufficient disposable income for a new bike I'd advise an alloy/aluminium frame to start and Shimano Tiagra is more than adequate for a beginner - the next level up (105) is into racing territory (I think Shimano goes 2300, Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace) The likes of Ribble do such a bike for £6/700 - or check out the similar recommendations on here.

Go for a compact chainset (50/34 chainrings) and a decent sized cog at the back (28 up) if intending any hill riding when new. And as previous poster comments, often you can get a decent frame and spec, but the wheels are compromised, so worth keeping back some spare cash to upgrade them after a while.

Clipless pedals are a huge benefit over flats so you will want to try them. If you haven't used them before you *will* fall off. So worth trying them on out your mountain bike first on some soft surfaces! (The *fall* is usually when you stop and try to unclip - so fine if toppling onto grass - or mud!)

Frame size is mainly based around your leg length - one formula is - inside leg measurement (cm) x 0.69 - to give you an idea of optimum (horizontal) frame size - sloping top tubes are a bit trickier - but the manufacturer will usually supply the equivalent horizontal size. (There is a trend to go for smaller and smaller bikes with sloping top tubes, but personally I think it looks ugly)

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notfastenough [3685 posts] 2 years ago
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Hi Hamish, welcome and as someone said above, prepare to have your wallet raided!

I wouldn't worry about brands and groupsets at this stage, to be honest. If you focus on finding a decent shop that doesn't seem to just want to sell you whatever they can, then most of this stuff will pick itself through a logical process - if your shop stocks Giant, then make no mistake, they are good bikes. In fact, there a very few poor bikes around, provided you go to a proper bike shop. Once your budget and type of riding is known, the staff should be able to recommend a model to suit.

Other stuff:
1. Broadly speaking, there tends to be a few different types of road bike - 'race' bikes, 'sportive' bikes, then infinite shades of grey around Tourers, commuters, cyclocross bikes that all claim to be a 'do it all' bike. These 'types' refer to things like the geometry (i.e. more racey = flatter and more stretched out body position when riding), allowances for rack and mudguards, tyre width, whether the tyres are slick or knobbly, the sizes and number of gears provided etc. This can go on and on into disc brakes, tubing materials, blah blah...

Road bikes are most commonly built from aluminium or carbon fibre, so you'll find that each range has, for example, a racey model and a sportive model in alu, then again with different names, in carbon. So Specialized has the racey range with the alu Allez and the carbon Tarmac, then it has the sportive range, with the alu Secteur and the carbon Roubaix. Each bike is offered in different levels of spec depending on your budget - can you tell us what that is? (Don't feel funny about owning up to what you think may be too little or too much to spend!)

Some things I learned:

More important than any kit or materials used, is the fit. Make sure the shop will fit you to your new bike.

Fit isn't a one-time thing, it's a process. Don't worry if 6 months down the line, you're thinking the fit isn't quite right - your body adapts to the riding and changes as a result.

If I could go back and start again, I'd buy aluminium first time round - this is because once bitten by the bug, you'll want a second bike, and your first will get relegated to poor weather or commuting. You may not think this now, but the thing is, position and kit preferences are so subjective, that 12 months down the line you'll be getting a feel for the kit you really want based on your experience, and it won't be the same as you've already bought. It's also partly because good alu tends to be better than cheap carbon for around the same price.

Feel free to use trainers and flat pedals while you get used to the bike. Clipless are brilliant, but they only really come into their own when you want to learn efficient pedalling technique.

With regard to kit, I'd try and keep it to a sensible set:
Base layer, fingerless and full finger gloves
Winter jersey/bibtights
windproof packable rain jacket
summer jersey/bibshorts/armwarmers
helmet should you choose to wear one
Pedals and shoes - these come in various systems with associated pros and cons - influencing factors would include any history of knee pain, type of riding, whether you want to be able to walk properly in the shoes, ease of use, cost etc

If you can tell us your area, you may find someone can recommend a local shop. Something like a Specialized Secteur (alu, relaxed geometry) would probably be ideal from what you have said (some nice paint jobs now too!). If I recall correctly, the Merida 'Ride' series are aimed at the same type of riding.

Always fun, buying a new bike!

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HamishB [5 posts] 2 years ago
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Hi all,

So if we set a budget of say £1000 for a bike, I'd say that would be the most I'd probably want to spend initially. Dont mind adding a little bit to that for clothing/gear etc.

Although if the right bike came along at less than that, happy days... I'm now swaying into thinking Alu frame/Carbon forks, and looking at something like Shimano Tiagra groupset.

Hopefully I could grab a bargain on such a bike and perhaps keep it under £1000?

Does anyone know if the Giant Defy is a more relaxed geometry or more race orientated?

Never had clipless, but I think probably spd sounds best option for ability to walk around with the shoes.

I wont be using the bike for commuting, just training and weekend stuff and i'm in the borders, so plenty of hills around me haha

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muddydwarf [24 posts] 2 years ago
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I'm fairly new to road riding, coming from a MTB background of over 15yrs. I bought a MEKK Potenza SL.5.0 from Edinburgh Bike Co-op for £1100 in August, loved riding it but unfortunately snapped the chainstay in a freak accident. Contrary to what others have said, Carbon CAN be fixed but its not always a pretty finish.
I took the opportunity to upgrade & bought a Dolan L'Etape frame in carbon for £399.99.
You can go onto the Dolan website & 'build' a bike to your pricepoint/specification so worth considering. If you are in the English North West they have a showroom/shop in Ormskirk so you could try out different types of frames.
Ive had my Dolan since Thursday last & already put 87 miles on it, lovely bike to ride & I'm really happy with it - just to throw another manufacturer into the mix!

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arfa [747 posts] 2 years ago
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£1000 budget will do you proud.
Including the giant bikes, I'd take a look at the cannondale synapse, trek Madone, felt z series and the Roubaix.
I think you are right to stick with tiagra and if you can push it to 105 you will future proof your bike.
As for pedals, spd's all the way for first time road biking - wiggle have been doing them for about 20 quid. Just turn the tension right down at first in the pedal to allow for easy release and you will be fine. I am more of a fan of touring shoes than racing (as I don't really race and walking around with spd-sl pizzas on the bottom of my shoes is a pain and no good for commuting).
As for "offs", it largely comes down to how you ride - my carbon bike was written off in a smidsy on a roundabout when the driver was looking at his phone....
All I would caution on is never ever try and turn your front wheel if over ironworks in the rain as you will be chewing tarmac before you know it.
Good luck, I am sure your poor mountain bike will gather dust from now onwards !

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notfastenough [3685 posts] 2 years ago
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And wazam! As of by magic, this is posted:

http://road.cc/content/news/114718-just-trek-domane-20

Giants website lists the Defy as one of their endurance bikes, so a touch more relaxed. If your local shop sells Giant, I don't think you'll go wrong with a defy.

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HamishB [5 posts] 2 years ago
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hey all, seriously, thank you all so so much... really overwhelmed by the amount of advise and help coming in for me.

Think I need to get to an LBS and get sized up for next stage.

Random question... has anyone seen the road bikes coming in with disc brakes now? Any thoughts on these? Seen there was a nice specialized secteur with disc brakes etc on it... only ever known road bikes to have block type brakes?

Do you think disc brakes will take over eventually and should I even consider looking at disc brakes?

Cheers,

H

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arfa [747 posts] 2 years ago
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Disc brakes are the future, end of story. However the technology is nascent in road biking and I'd wait a couple of years before they get the technology sorted and bedded in.

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Buggers85 [8 posts] 2 years ago
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I wouldn't want disc braked on my bike  14

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Buggers85 [8 posts] 2 years ago
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I wouldn't want disc braked on my bike  14

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Buggers85 [8 posts] 2 years ago
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I wouldn't want disc braked on my bike

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jacknorell [966 posts] 2 years ago
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Buggers85 wrote:

I wouldn't want disc braked on my bike

Don't think anyone's forcing you. There are still both v-brakes and canti's available for MTBs... if you really go looking.

Hard to find because they're simply the worse choice.

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MartyMcCann [236 posts] 2 years ago
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HamishB wrote:

hey all, seriously, thank you all so so much... really overwhelmed by the amount of advise and help coming in for me.

Think I need to get to an LBS and get sized up for next stage.

Random question... has anyone seen the road bikes coming in with disc brakes now? Any thoughts on these? Seen there was a nice specialized secteur with disc brakes etc on it... only ever known road bikes to have block type brakes?

Do you think disc brakes will take over eventually and should I even consider looking at disc brakes?

Cheers,

H

Careful there Hamish- disc brakes are just behind helmets and Rapha (the company not the tennis player!) for kickstarting rows on these pages...!

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