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Sergio Henao suspended by sky
What's going on here then?
Is this a pre-emptive measure to avoid a repeat the JTL situation?
http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17546_9221191,00.html
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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94 comments
As an aside, I found it amusing that people like Jonathan Vaughters, David Millar and David Walsh, people who have previously been held up on a pedestal by the twitter and blogger trolls, are now accused of hypocrisy and lying. Walsh, especially, seems to have come under fire for daring to spend a season with Sky and not find any evidence whatsoever of doping. Walsh, who risked his entire career on exposing Armstrong and doping in cycling. To think that he'd do a 180 degree turn and be complicit with a team doping - well, it just boggles the mind.
The trolls will only listen to Kimmage, for Kimmage will always accuse everyone of doping.
Of course there is doping in the peloton still, but cycling is working incredibly hard to get rid of it. There's not a single sport out there to rival the anti doping stance cycling now has.
Someone posted a list of times for the Pogio climb in MSR last week - the difference in times between the period of 1990-2006 and 2007-present day was stark. We're looking at an average of 6 mins during the heavy EPO era, and nearer to 7 minutes now. This is for the lead group - so, the riders most likely to be doped going over it first and fastest.
And if you were a good rider who's natural level was quite low anyway....
Wegelius makes that point also, he devotes a chapter of his book to the subject and I didn't want to quote all of it!
Headwind up the Pogio on Sunday - same as last year, and both after cold, wet races, maybe also helps explain some of the "slower" times recently...
I'd give you that, if it was just the last 2 editions of the race, but it's more like the last 8 or 9 that have been markedly slower. The 90s and early 2000s are all supercharged, it's a very clear trend. Wish I had that link now.
Thanks for finally engaging, and I mean that sincerely. There is truth in much of what you have said and I may be wrong - at the centre of this is really whether we have faith in our sportsmen and women (no disrespect - I think the domestic English cycling scene is not as corrupt as the European - I cannot say 'clean', but I do not see it being the same den of doping that predominated in Belgium and the Netherlands).
I am afraid I am too long in the tooth to just accept what I hear from Sky. Uran Uran and Henao both raised my suspicions with their performances in the previous Giro D'Italia's so this is a 'proof positive' for me. It probably doesn't take much these days. But having read around the subject (unless one has access to insider knowledge, which almost predicates that you're doping then you're not likely to know, even anti-dopers don't know what the dopers are doing) suspicion is almost as good a detector as we have - but obviously that doesn't meet the legal requirements of a court case (hence having a standard for hematocrit we can't humanly hope to achieve).
Denigrate me if you will, but I watched Lemond and Hinault, I watched Lemond and Laurent Fignon, and then thought I saw the best cyclist in the world Indurain (maybe he is), but watched it all fall apart with Pantani, Festini and co. When Armstrong came on the scene he came to represent everything that was wrong with cycling. He was clearly doping, he was clearly controlling the sport in a way that doesn't happen - we delapidate from repeated stress, we break, weaken and suffer in ways we cannot adequately control and Armstrong never did any of that.
He went away and came back - the system changed we heard, but still he rode. Contador, Schleck....both implicated, both denied. We are supposed to think that things have changed, but they don't feel like they have. While I think dopers don't dope as much, the evidence is that they still do and get away with it.
I still watch the sport and follow avidly, I watch and every race or match is tinged with an umbra of drugs. I watch most most sports that way - my other half sees why, but does not think things are as bad as I. But in a world where we continue to 'guarantee' our winners, where budgets count more than talent, where the vagaries of the human body rarely seem to decide a ride /match (though cycling rarely throws up a guaranteed winner in a single day race) I do not get astounded at the outcomes.
I hope the latest tests can get to the heart of the doping. I hope it helps break the ring. But until we have more convictions and understand the actualities of doping I will find such anomalies a high likelihood of wrong doing.
I understand why and how people could easily believe that cycling has not changed. Especially when we consider the events of the last two decades. It's been shit, granted.
However, it's futile to live in the past. While we're still ironing some things out, we are in a new decade now, and a new tranche of young cyclists are coming through, from new rules and new ideals.
Yes, unfortunately we do still have riders who're a small stain on the overall might of the peloton, but unlike their predecessors they no longer represent the peloton as whole.
We absolutely must give these riders a chance. Have your doubts and voice those opinions but please don't tar everyone with the same brush, it's unfair to do so. They shouldn't have to pick up the pieces of what the older generation have done. We train hard, we race hard and bar a few idiots, most of the time we race clean.
Please remember that there is a new culture in cycling, much different to that of the 90's & early 00's - in that if you can't do it naturally, you're simply not hard enough. To dope is to behave like a pansy, to try and soften the blow of the pain involved is basically to demote yourself, people like that just don't get any respect or voice any more. Times have changed.
The future of sport can't survive off of the negativity of the past. It doesn't help aspiring athletes when all they face is militant accusations from the old world's followers.
mooleur, i totally agree, its called trust and we have to learn to move on regardless of how bad things were.
You are idealists.
And you're an arse.
3 - 0
<
Whose throwing insults now?
You cast your score lines here all day too. Personally they mean little to me. But the fact remains that doping has not left cycling by your own admission and so why stand up for Henao who has had an anomalous blood reading which is a fail in other words. As other people have put, it doesn't look very good for Sky. That's two in less than a year!
Ouch.
Personally I don't see why we should trust any of them and I don't. Trust is something you earn and they haven't earned it by a long shot. They'd be more trust worthy if they actually finger pointed each other and kept it clean that way. But no one talks do they.
God is this thread still running?
To be fair, at least Mooleur's insults are funny.
I'm pretty much done with it to be honest, giving a constructive reply seems to prove as futile as throwing around childish insults anyway!
I call Godwins Law. Colin, you're a big silly doping Nazi.
Colin your argument is flawwed logically. You state that your suspicions are 'proof positive' for you, but that trust needs to be earned. One cannot earn trust if the merest suspicion is sufficient for you to judge them guilty and untrustworthy, then tar the entire sport the same. Seriously, you are asking to prove a negative which is impossible to prove that everyone in the peloton is clean, and so to use your logic they are all doping? Really? That is your stance as explained, and you seem to wonder why people on here think you are bigoted. Personally, i think that it is just that you have your dogmatic attachment to the past and want to keep reliving that. Maybe you once believed and feel wronged, who was it who hurt you so, Colin? Who?
Well, we learnt one thing from this thread; Mr Peyresourde found out that you can like your own posts on here.
I like the name Sergio.
"Ohhh Sergio gon' be mad"
Oh my, I've got it! Colin Peyresoude is an anagram of.... Paul Kimmage!*
*This bit may not be entirely true.
What we've found out here is sky fan boys can't handle the truth : )
Who's the fanboy?
I've seen none comment so far.
Yep! (although I've just now added to it lol)
Sadly I remember this site as a far more interesting and pleasant place. You might recall the likes of Trikeman, Andylul, Chris (from Dubai iirc) and others too. Genuine good advice, friendly banter, race coverage and discussion.
Now it's all doom and gloom stories of commuting misery or arguing over team Sky.
Ironically, the venom was out for Froome and the arguements during last years TdF were constant. Yet when Mr Horner turned on a performance in the Vuelta that could have raised eyebrows, hardly a word was said. In fact I had not seen much mentioned of it till this thread. (although it wasn't as shocking as that rider - his name escapes - in the Tour of Turkey a couple of years back!)
But I think that is why either Sky fans or those wanting fair comment get annoyed.
There are some who only post when it involves Sky bashing.
This isn't a dig directly at you Colin, although one such Sky basher did state (during the Froome TdF battle ground) that we should all listen to you as you were an ex-pro, former top rider and voice of experience. Are you?
To me, imho, Sky have 2 cases recently that could go either way. JTL and Sergio. If Sky are what they say (and you know what, I'd like to believe they are, along with certain other teams) and it's either a Pre-Sky issue or something that a rider has done off their own back, then flagging it up / acting on it / cooperating is the right thing to do.
However, IF it is that Sky are dodgy, then BANG the bubble bursts in Lance stylee! No amount of slick PR could mop that mess up and there will probably be some mass UK cycling burning of Sky jerseys or something! (although I'm not going to be melting down the Pina!)
Time will tell. The truth has a habit of rising to the surface, ask LA.
I know this has been a long post, but maybe it will be good to reflect on how this forum and site used to be.
Yes, debate is normal. Opinions are the life blood of forums. But the direction it's heading now will put people off joining up, joining in or even riding at this rate!
But let's get back to the banter, the advice and enjoyment of cycling.
Happy cycling!
I don't know where people get these things - ex-pro? Good post Super Domestique - you are right. I have noticed a change in the way comment is received now.
I don't care about Sky anymore than I do Lampre or IAM racing. I do care about doping and I don't think it will ever go to bed. I've read up about the subject (and not just cycling related).
The authorities on the matter (which I do not claim to be, but I certainly have more knowledge than your joe off the street) know that doping is a constant in sport. It hasn't just gone away. The evidence is that it goes on a little, but often. If this is true, and I see dirty Berti won the Tour of the Basque Country this weekend, then the people to suspect will not be your lantern rouge, they will be bubbling around in the higher orders, because doping has to be worth something to do it. Or at least those with most to gain from doping will be those that make it count.
I think some people have taken my comments to be an attack on cycling, but actually those in the know are aware that it is every where. Even at the Winter Olympics there was talk of using Xenon gas to boost RBC.
If I bash Sky, I bash everyone. I can still enjoy the sport, but I can also be sceptical. Some who know me may remember that I vociferously denounced Horner. Some people believe that he is innocent, but given his biggest and most astounding win he has kept a low profile in the sport and advisably so. I don't think cycling really needed him to highlight that doping was still a factor....anyway moving on.
The margins between winning and losing at the very top of professional sport are so small that athletes, their coaches (and by association their agents and sponsors) will explore every available 'marginal gain' to be the best that they can.
So to think that doping in cycling (where the rewards for success are higher than they've ever been) is now pursued by a few failures at the back of the peloton is very naïve.
Sky said that the Henao testing / research / whatever PR spin they've put on it, process would take around 8 weeks, after which they would issue a full report. So, we should hear something in May.
However, Sky have (plenty) previous when it comes to bullsh*t.
The only evidence I need when it comes to Sky are the names of the last 2 TdF champions, their dominance of the key races leading up to these Tours, and the nature of these wins.
Sky are no worse than any other top team, but I can't stand their 'holier than thou' bullsh*t PR.
Great evidence gathering there, bro. You should get a job on CSI.
I'll believe Wiggins is a credible TdF champion when Tony Martin (who is twice the rider Wiggins is) wins it!
Id be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that Martin is twice the rider Wiggins is? Based on ?
There's been questions about him in the past too :
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8426/Doping-UCI-Index-of-Suspicion-lea...
Are you serious?
About as serious as you are that Tony Martin could ever win the TdF. (Unless of course they remove the mountain stages
)
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