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Sergio Henao suspended by sky

What's going on here then?
Is this a pre-emptive measure to avoid a repeat the JTL situation?
http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17546_9221191,00.html

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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daddyELVIS replied to edster99 | 9 years ago
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edster99 wrote:

Id be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that Martin is twice the rider Wiggins is? Based on ?

Are you serious?

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Kapelmuur | 10 years ago
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From 'Domestique' by Charlie Wegelius, " The problem was mostly that, as a test for banned performance enhancing drugs, the 50% haematocrit was a ridiculous value. A person's haematocrit goes up and down all the time.

....It was so crude and basic and the figure of 50% might as well have been plucked right out of thin air. A lot of scientific literature puts 53% or 54% amongst the normal limits."

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farrell replied to Kapelmuur | 10 years ago
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Crosshouses wrote:

From 'Domestique' by Charlie Wegelius, " The problem was mostly that, as a test for banned performance enhancing drugs, the 50% haematocrit was a ridiculous value. A person's haematocrit goes up and down all the time.

....It was so crude and basic and the figure of 50% might as well have been plucked right out of thin air. A lot of scientific literature puts 53% or 54% amongst the normal limits."

And if you were a good rider who's natural level was quite low anyway....

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Kapelmuur replied to farrell | 10 years ago
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farrell wrote:
Crosshouses wrote:

From 'Domestique' by Charlie Wegelius, " The problem was mostly that, as a test for banned performance enhancing drugs, the 50% haematocrit was a ridiculous value. A person's haematocrit goes up and down all the time.

....It was so crude and basic and the figure of 50% might as well have been plucked right out of thin air. A lot of scientific literature puts 53% or 54% amongst the normal limits."

And if you were a good rider who's natural level was quite low anyway....

Wegelius makes that point also, he devotes a chapter of his book to the subject and I didn't want to quote all of it!

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JohnnyRemo | 10 years ago
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Reading between the lines of the statements from Sky I suspect the Columbian anti-doping procedures are going to be brought into question as a cause of the abnormal readings...

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bashthebox | 10 years ago
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2-0 to Moo...

And, as an aside, the irony in this statement:
That's what a bigot does - he chooses to shut the conveersation down (sic)
Made me laugh.

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Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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Well Moo, you are well in the know aren't you. I bow down to your superior scientific knowledge. You don't mention any that I can see. But it seems that I am to bow down to it.

But thank you for offering to take all those drugs tests. I'd love to know the results.

I call you bigoted because you do not open your mind, not because you do not agree with me, but because you do not seem to enjoin with debate but just shut it down. That's what a bigot does - he chooses to shut the conveersation down because you do not want to believe anything else.

Don't you think it odd that Sky have had to make this effort to dissipate the story? It's all beginning to sound a bit suspicious in the Sky obelisk isn't? JTL, previous Sky coaches doping records.....the net is closing in. Well, whatever.

Here is some science, Henao is not Quechua or Aymaren, as far as anyone has said. These are the two tribes who've spent long enough in the Andes to develop a genetic predisposition to a physiological adaptation, which is really who the article (that is posted above by another poster) is about. So all the talk of altitude is smoke and mirrors for a failed test. Simple. If his numbers were just a little funny they wouldn't need to suspend him or hold him back now would they?

Now, again, going back to science - the main problem with testing is that it's soooo hard to catch people when the drug they take so closely mimics our natural produced hormones. This makes it really hard to catch the cheats.....like Genevieve Jensen. Oh, wait.....snap. She was a woman and was doing EPO from the age of 16. Damn, that is young isn't it?! And they say the women's cycling is clean. Dear me! And you wanted to know when they started - well there is no register for doping, so you kind of have to wait till they are caught. Not easy when there's no money for testing at amateur level.

But going back to the science: because these drugs are so close to hormones they set the hematocrit limit to 50. You know why? Because even with genetic variance no one can reach that limit. No one. So if your bloods do top that you definitely are doping. So why is it that I am twitchy about Henao's report?

Of course, you know about all that don't you. But still no reason to doubt Sky, of course. I understand.

Well I also wonder how much money do you think it takes to do an effective drug testing program? £60,000 per competitor was the last WADA estimate. How much do you think actually gets allocated to testing? I would guess a fraction of that. How much can you trust cycling given it's recent and current past? (Horner anyone?) Very little. KA-BOOM right back at you.

Hope the science, or list of inconvenient facts there didn't twist your brain.

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mooleur replied to Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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I'll attempt to ignore your unwarranted thrust of sarcasm and insults and answer this as coherently as possible. As you've obviously a chip on your shoulder of some sorts for whatever reason.

So let me get the list right, you want my results, Cavs, Petes, Annas..oh and Swifty's - anyone else? I'll get those in the post to you RIGHT away, as obviously my little brain would be too twisted by all those complicated numbers and chemical details and so your in depth expert analysis would be the obvious route here. British Cycling and the UCI obviously don't know what they're talking about..SO, do tell us, when you receive these results, what exactly are you going to do with them? What's your process for analysis here? I'm genuinely intrigued!

My mind is open, I haven't once closed down your argument other than issuing a "face palm" which was a direct reaction to your own bigoted and quite frankly disturbingly insulting answer regarding my friends. You really think I'm going to be open to debating with someone who takes personal digs at something they don't know anything about?? Come on. Wise up.

On the subject of Henao and your well Googled tribesfolk - they *would* need to suspend him if his numbers are "a little funny" - it's not a black and white guilty/not guilty scenario. Sky operate a strict policy whereby if there are any discrepancies, be it negative or not (and in this instances no accusation of doping has actually occurred - do bear that in mind), are suspended until further analysis and proof by governing and medical bodies is provided. This is the case for a large number of professional and domestic teams nowadays. It's not really smoke and mirrors at all, it doesn't matter if Henao's genetic details lie with an indigenous tribespeople or if he's simply a guy who lives at the top of a hill, the point is he lives on the top of a hill and that's what needs scientific investigation, which is absolutely a good thing. Neither you or I know the gritty details of his blood values other than "they're a bit off" - as such it's not our place to decide whether or not his location or geneitcs or down right cheating come in to play until we have more information.

No one said women's cycling was clean, don't put words in our mouths please. Yes she was young, that's still no statistical evidence to back up your claim that all kids are "on it". I refute your previous statements on this to be honest, as you do not (apparently) spend time with these people, their parents, or even attend the same events under the same regulations as them. How can you possibly judge me, or my friends, if you have no experience of what you're talking about?

If you're doping at an amateur level as a teenager OR an adult, you have only your own life to watch fail as you cannot benefit from EPO or other similar drugs if you are not at the top of your peak, if you have been riding a bike for two years and train for 5 hours a week - taking EPO will not work. It destroys your body and for a child to take it is essentially career suicide. It won't help them. There is no point, and quite frankly I don't know any 16 year old that would be able to afford it. There are always exceptional cases, please don't cite these as backup to made up statistics.

You can be as twitchy as you like but there are many different factors in blood testing that you are obviously ignoring, a super high haemocrit might not be what they've found. Do forgive me if I've missed their whitepaper on the matter but I'm pretty sure they've not released the numbers of the test yet?

I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm some sort of avid Sky fan, must be that chip on your shoulder. I'm sticking up for a sport which is being tarnished by your conspiracy theories, oh yes, OF COURSE I must be a delusional fangirl!!

How much do I think gets allocated to testing? Not enough. How much do I think your questioning how much I trust this process is a piss poor debate tactic? Enough. Again, your quick biased Googling methods aren't really grounds for refuting this either. Do you follow WADA, or the UCI or pro riders around all year or something?

Hope this neutral explanation of my opinion doesn't twist your dead set brain, my apologies for my inability to agree with your theories, I just can't, because you don't know these people, you don't know the sport and most importantly you obviously do not care.

Next up, conversations on chemtrails and what the government are doing to control our minds....

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Colin Peyresourde replied to mooleur | 10 years ago
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Thanks for finally engaging, and I mean that sincerely. There is truth in much of what you have said and I may be wrong - at the centre of this is really whether we have faith in our sportsmen and women (no disrespect - I think the domestic English cycling scene is not as corrupt as the European - I cannot say 'clean', but I do not see it being the same den of doping that predominated in Belgium and the Netherlands).

I am afraid I am too long in the tooth to just accept what I hear from Sky. Uran Uran and Henao both raised my suspicions with their performances in the previous Giro D'Italia's so this is a 'proof positive' for me. It probably doesn't take much these days. But having read around the subject (unless one has access to insider knowledge, which almost predicates that you're doping then you're not likely to know, even anti-dopers don't know what the dopers are doing) suspicion is almost as good a detector as we have - but obviously that doesn't meet the legal requirements of a court case (hence having a standard for hematocrit we can't humanly hope to achieve).

Denigrate me if you will, but I watched Lemond and Hinault, I watched Lemond and Laurent Fignon, and then thought I saw the best cyclist in the world Indurain (maybe he is), but watched it all fall apart with Pantani, Festini and co. When Armstrong came on the scene he came to represent everything that was wrong with cycling. He was clearly doping, he was clearly controlling the sport in a way that doesn't happen - we delapidate from repeated stress, we break, weaken and suffer in ways we cannot adequately control and Armstrong never did any of that.

He went away and came back - the system changed we heard, but still he rode. Contador, Schleck....both implicated, both denied. We are supposed to think that things have changed, but they don't feel like they have. While I think dopers don't dope as much, the evidence is that they still do and get away with it.

I still watch the sport and follow avidly, I watch and every race or match is tinged with an umbra of drugs. I watch most most sports that way - my other half sees why, but does not think things are as bad as I. But in a world where we continue to 'guarantee' our winners, where budgets count more than talent, where the vagaries of the human body rarely seem to decide a ride /match (though cycling rarely throws up a guaranteed winner in a single day race) I do not get astounded at the outcomes.

I hope the latest tests can get to the heart of the doping. I hope it helps break the ring. But until we have more convictions and understand the actualities of doping I will find such anomalies a high likelihood of wrong doing.

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mooleur | 10 years ago
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Haha, you were right mate, but yeah....never mess with a Moo on a Monday is all I'm saying!  10

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mooleur | 10 years ago
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Haha, you were right mate, but yeah....never mess with a Moo on a Monday is all I'm saying!  10

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notfastenough | 10 years ago
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All it was missing was a 70's-style Batman pic complete with "KABLAM!" caption.

There was me thinking that Mooleur's "Face. Palm." post was basically a way of bowing out of the argument becuase she couldn't be arsed arguing with a brick wall. You came back with a vengeance there, no?!  21

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bashthebox | 10 years ago
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Well that's about as a good a take-down as I've read online recently. Bravo.

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mooleur | 10 years ago
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Oh and to cite on the fact that you're wrong, just to cover myself here.. a) you're calling me out for being bigoted by way of having an opinion that YOU don't agree with is, well, bigotry in itself and b) I am not a shower, I can send you pictures if you like.

OH, and to add - "Patriotic Sky Fan Club" - get real, mate, firstly I'm not English and I don't live in the UK, I'm also not a "fan" of any team - I don't even watch male professional cycling unless there are people I know taking part - quite frankly I find it boring (no offence) and debate on the subject always seems to be surrounded with idiots who think a good ride equates to doping....oh waiiiiiiit.

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notfastenough | 10 years ago
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Colin, so if innocent until proven guilty is no use in sport, and the tests can be cheated, how is one supposed to convince anyone they're clean? You can't prove a negative, so what to do?

Also, when (or at what level) does this magic temptation to dope start? There are racers on this thread, why not accuse them of doping?

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mooleur replied to notfastenough | 10 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:

Also, when (or at what level) does this magic temptation to dope start? There are racers on this thread, why not accuse them of doping?

^^ this.

Would you like my blood profile Colin? Medical Records maybe?

I was racing with Cav & Kennaugh ... oh and Junior Ladies champ Anna C at Christmas I could let them know you require their details also I'm sure they'd be happy to comply with satisfying your archaic, ignorant, bigoted and ill informed opinion on their livelihoods.

Or perhaps I could nip round to Swiftys when he's home from his MSR result and make him a brew while he pisses on to some litmus so I can pop this in the post to you because you're obviously a much more accomplished expert on the matter than the UCI proles he has to deal with on a regular basis. Right?

Thanks for calling me a bigoted douche, just backs up my theory that you are inherently wrong about everything.

Stop arguing for arguments sake and do us all a favour, keep it to yourself. Come at me with science and fact, not bullshit, please.

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crazy-legs | 10 years ago
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No one has said anything about doping, you're all inferring that. Sky have removed a rider from racing while they investigate some unusual readings. It's not a positive test, it's not an adverse analytical finding, it's simply some unusual readings. The fact that Sky themselves discovered this, announced it to the UCI and took the rider out of competition would seem to suggest the very opposite of covering things up.

A cover up is when an athlete (in any sport) suddenly comes down with a mystery illness or injury and is miraculously unable to do the doping test that's just been announced...

As mentioned, the problems are caused by wild uninformed speculation on internet forums whenever something like this happens. Might as well hold a flag up saying "all cynics, sceptics and Sky-bashers to the forum please!"

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Super Domestique replied to crazy-legs | 10 years ago
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crazy-legs wrote:

No one has said anything about doping, you're all inferring that. Sky have removed a rider from racing while they investigate some unusual readings. It's not a positive test, it's not an adverse analytical finding, it's simply some unusual readings. The fact that Sky themselves discovered this, announced it to the UCI and took the rider out of competition would seem to suggest the very opposite of covering things up.

A cover up is when an athlete (in any sport) suddenly comes down with a mystery illness or injury and is miraculously unable to do the doping test that's just been announced...

As mentioned, the problems are caused by wild uninformed speculation on internet forums whenever something like this happens. Might as well hold a flag up saying "all cynics, sceptics and Sky-bashers to the forum please!"

 41 Well said. Thank you!

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allez neg | 10 years ago
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As has been suggested above, British Cycling will be pretty funked if there's a positive doping test at Sky, if it's been done on Brailsford's watch, 'cos it'll damage the credibility of all the Olympic and track success over the last decade. Brailsford isn't stupid - he must realise this.

I doubt Murdoch 's money would continue afterwards either.

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bashthebox | 10 years ago
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The point about amateur racers feeling they 'have' to dope and then accusing a team like Sky of being responsible just doesn't hold up. Sky, Garmin and other clean teams are extremely vocal about the fact that they are clean - they promote the message that you can win without cheating.
Ironically, it's people who call every stage winner a doper that are encouraging the young and impressionable to dope - they read everything and can't filter out fact from fiction, then start thinking that they've got no hope without dope.

Or, there's the theory that the type of person that's driven to win will do so at any cost - and doping is part of that will to win.

Point is, it's really hard to know much for sure, but throwing out accusations every single race gets no one anywhere.

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md6 | 10 years ago
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It seems to me that Sky has acted exactly as it would be expected to in this, it finds or is alerted to an unusual reading. It stops the individual racing while it investigates. That investigation looks into the potential environmental and geneological factors ("altitude native" at altitude) to see if this exaplains those readings. That would seem to fit with their stated approach and also without sounding too cynical, if they find something that can explain the readings/that riders from that part of the world are just 'better' physically - like East African marathon runners - then i imagine they want to be first to know so they can invest their time and energy developing/finding the next big thing from that region. So if they can identify something that makes a person predisposed to being a great rider/better than others, they will look to exploit that, or maybe find a way to scientifically recreate the factors to benefit their riders (by that i mean taking further things like oxygen tents, altitude training rather than chemically)

Given his stated position, I would be interested* in what Colin would suggest that Sky should do in this situation? (*Genuinely - i love a debate and opinions)

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Stumps | 10 years ago
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Colin, its called trust. You havre to start at some point to start trusting what your told and by choosing the team that firstly is British and has brought us 2 GT winners and secondly that openly states that it has zero tolerance with drugs hence why so many very good coaches and riders have left. No doubt someone will correct me if i'm wrong but i dont believe any Sky rider has supplied a positive test ????

The JTL situation seems to be prior to Sky but when the UCI publish their report it should be made clear and with Henao he has not failed a blood / urine test he simply has readings that require a look at to find out what has happened.

Your lack of trust is disapointing and the sport will never move on despite its best efforts if there are people who continually deride its efforts to do so.

Your entitled to your opinions and we all accept that, argue your case most certainly, but by trying to put down people who disagree with you is pointless, i've learnt that from other articles.

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Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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I don't care if it's Sky or anyone else. But they do set themselves up to be hypocrits.

Mooleur - you show your own bigoted mindset. Suspension of disbelief.

My point about the youth cycling is that young riders are pushed to doping and the denial and continued support in a world where cheats prosper leads to casualties like these young men. You bury your head and that's what you foster.

Face palm to you douche.

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mrmo replied to Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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Colin Peyresourde wrote:

My point about the youth cycling is that young riders are pushed to doping and the denial and continued support in a world where cheats prosper leads to casualties like these young men. You bury your head and that's what you foster.

Or alternatively, young riders hear that they have to cheat, that they haven't got a hope because "everyone" is doping, all they hear is doping doping doping, so go and do something else, like football where doping is just as prevalent if not more so, but no one cares and the money is better.

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notfastenough replied to Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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Colin Peyresourde wrote:

I don't care if it's Sky or anyone else. But they do set themselves up to be hypocrits.

Mooleur - you show your own bigoted mindset. Suspension of disbelief.

My point about the youth cycling is that young riders are pushed to doping and the denial and continued support in a world where cheats prosper leads to casualties like these young men. You bury your head and that's what you foster.

Face palm to you douche.

Are you for real? So innocent til proven (or even decent grounds for suspicion) guilty is indicative of a bigoted mindset? But 'Ive decided that you're all doping because some of you were' isn't?

When you say you still enjoy the racing, do you watch American wrestling too? May as well, if your opinion of the authenticity is that low.

Oh, well done with the personal insults too.

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Colin Peyresourde replied to notfastenough | 10 years ago
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notfastenough wrote:
Colin Peyresourde wrote:

I don't care if it's Sky or anyone else. But they do set themselves up to be hypocrits.

Mooleur - you show your own bigoted mindset. Suspension of disbelief.

My point about the youth cycling is that young riders are pushed to doping and the denial and continued support in a world where cheats prosper leads to casualties like these young men. You bury your head and that's what you foster.

Face palm to you douche.

Are you for real? So innocent til proven (or even decent grounds for suspicion) guilty is indicative of a bigoted mindset? But 'Ive decided that you're all doping because some of you were' isn't?

When you say you still enjoy the racing, do you watch American wrestling too? May as well, if your opinion of the authenticity is that low.

Oh, well done with the personal insults too.

The mindset of innocent until proven guilty is a little misplaced around all professional sport. Unfortunately anti-doping has proven itself time and again to be unable to effectively police sport anywhere. Most of the time where it has found the cheats it is actually through the confessions of others involved in the sport. Just look what happened in Jamaica recently - they didn't even bother to test their athletes before the Olympics. Result - a clean up in the sprinting. There's the often quoted study which states that if athletes could dope and get away with it they would. But I choose to voice my dissent to the PR because you all seem to lap it up as a way of continuing your suspension of disbelief at what appears to be more likely. I can understand why, but I'm not going to let it just happen without naysaying.

Unfortunately human nature being what it is creates situations where if policing does not happen then the people DO justify their behaviour under the suspicion that everyone else is cheating/stealing too. It's all there in black and white if you read David Millar's book - he got into it because he was being beaten by those he suspected were cheating and eventually decided to do so too. He too also justified his doping by lying to himself, that he was just doing it compete, that he wasn't cheating, just playing the game. But that is how insidious this culture is and pernicious.

Has the door shut on this sort of thing? The answer is no. Do we see doping moving into the amateur arena? The answer is 'yes'. Marco Pantani doped as an amateur and he didn't come from a world of means. He was just motivated enough to start doping.

If you are talking about insults I was just returning Mooleur's. I just find the Sky 'fan club' a little deluded and blinded by patriotic fervour. Why is it that some of you choose to suppress your suspicion because it is Sky saying what they do? But maybe I shouldn't expect so much from people that seem determined to suppress opinion and not engage with a debate.

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farrell replied to Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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Colin Peyresourde wrote:

I just find the Sky 'fan club' a little deluded and blinded by patriotic fervour. Why is it that some of you choose to suppress your suspicion because it is Sky saying what they do?

Not just Sky though is it?

If Sky are doping, and doing it so well that they are evading detection then why wouldn't Brailsford be using the same 'techniques' with the GB squad?

You're adamant that Sky are doping so all their victories are tainted, therefore it follows that all the Olympic, Commonwealth and world championship medals are equally as tainted.

Pendleton, Hoy, King, Trott, Cavendish, Clancy, Hindes, Rowsell, Reade, Phillips.....

Perhaps you could point out if there are any cyclists that you don't think are doping to make it quicker for us?

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fukawitribe replied to Colin Peyresourde | 10 years ago
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Colin Peyresourde wrote:

If you are talking about insults I was just returning Mooleur's.

So someone calls 'face palm' on your analysis and you respond with 'bigotted' and 'douche'. Well done big man, way to win an argument.

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Stumps | 10 years ago
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Sky get a bashing because they are British and everyone from the UK loves to put down anything we are good at. You dont get it in the rest of Europe or USA.

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Super Domestique replied to Stumps | 10 years ago
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stumps wrote:

Sky get a bashing because they are British and everyone from the UK loves to put down anything we are good at. You dont get it in the rest of Europe or USA.

So true. Plus there seem to be a 'select few*' who only bother posting/contributing on here if it involves having a dig at Sky.

*or one with multiple accounts!

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